hpdw

I know nasty people who don't seem to know any other way ( one is my sister in-law ) who doesn't have a good word to say about anybody ,who has betrayed her own sister and even her own grown up children on some occasions to gain favour ,makes up vicious lies ,turns things round her way . Just a horrible individual !!! is it her fault ? is her behaviour here choice? was it ever her choice to be constantly mean and nasty ( she was mean 35 years ago and still is ) , I don't blame her upbringing as my wife is not remotely similar in nature . I tolerate my sister in-law only as a way of keeping the peace and for my wife sake , if not for my wife I'd never let her in my from gate .

dcg

No condescension there either; ok, later, guys...

Darwinia

Haha. Touche'

thomas11

Well said EndGame. Sadly too many people in the world are indeed small and petty. Glad we aren't them.

Venecia

My father spent much of his career teaching. One year, for the high school yearbook, the teachers were asked to give one sentence of advice. Dad wrote: "Live each day like it was your last and one of these days you'll be right."

Dad died unexpectedly in his sleep two years ago. On his final day, he planted the last flowers he needed to complete his garden, practiced his tuba, had coffee with a dear neighbor and dinner with Mom.

It reminds me of something I saw once here on SR -- and I'm 99 percent sure it was you, EndGame, who shared it -- about the final scene in "Saving Private Ryan" when the now-elderly title character returns to the D-Day Beaches and cemetery and asks "was I a good man?" He was.

Some people bring good to their time on Earth. They earn respect; they are loved. They find what brings them joy.

My father's own father was pretty much a waste. He spent most of his life obliterating his mind with alcohol. He wasn't really missed. The tears that were shed at his funeral weren't for what was but for what could have been.

Something in him enabled my father to make choices, to take a different path. He chose to be a good husband and good father. His contributions earned the respect of his community. That might make him sound perfect, a real-life Sheriff Andy Taylor, but he wasn't. For a chunk of his adulthood, he was one of us. For the last quarter of his life, though, he chose sobriety.

He chose to be better.

I don't know why some people, including my paternal grandfather, reject the choices they have. Among our members, SR has many who didn't get the parents or the childhoods everyone deserves. There is great empathy and compassion for them here, as there should be.

I do pity those who decide to befoul the space they inhabit, to fail in their obligation to build something better for themselves and those around them. When it's all over -- and they may realize it or they may not -- the last day of their lives will pretty much reflect the entirety of their lives. They are neither respected nor mourned.

It gives me great comfort and strength to know I, like all of us, have been given the chance to determine my own path, to make the choice to be better. The self-governance we chart can honor those who went before us or, out of necessity, reject it and create a fresh, better legacy.

EndGameNYC

Yes, Venecia, it was I who referenced the final scene in Saving Private Ryan. Very moving, especially given what takes place up until that moment.

Due in large part to the often powerful denial that's required to sustain an angry, unhappy lifestyle over the lifespan, it rarely happens in my work, but it does happen: Elderly people -- in my case, all men -- come in with a haunting uneasiness that they describe as a sense of having lived an entire life without ever knowing what happiness is, without experiencing love, without ever having made, or even attempted, a genuine and supportive connection with another human being. Their regrets are so overwhelming, that I've felt as though I'd suffocate if I didn't get up and the leave the room. In most cases, they leave the session in tears, and I never see them again.

Two things that I experienced before this: Years ago, I was working in the psychiatric unit of a major medical center in NYC. This was at a time when hospitals, with government approval and prompting, were discharging people with severe and persistent psychiatric problems back into their communities, rather than keep them hospitalized for extended periods of time. Some for years, others until their deaths, up until that time. Day treatment centers became the primary monitor and source of help for such patients to learn interpersonal skills, take classes, enhance their abilities in activities of daily functioning, job skills, and other kinds of assistance, whose mission was to help patients to avoid future hospitalization.

During one of my early team meetings with social workers, psychiatrists and another psychologists, the lead psychiatrist brought up the introduction of a new medication for psychosis that seemed to hold some promise. In trials, a significant number of patients experienced a virtually wholesale clearing of psychotic symptoms. His concern was along the order of what happens when we introduce such a drug to a person who's been psychotic for his entire adult life when he regains clarity of thought, when a person awakens to a broken life that could span decades and whether or not it would be unethical to withhold such medications from certain patients. He was more interested in having people consider the consequences of administering such a drug, rather than promoting withholding it.

The movie Awakenings, with Robert De Niro and Robin Williams, based on the memoirs of Oliver Sacks (The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat). (Spoiler alert, but I won't tell you about how it all turns out.) The story is based on a group of patients who've suffered an outbreak of encephalitis years before the setting of the movie. All are catatonic/unresponsive to internal and external stimulation. They are literally going through the motions in life, and nothing more. Dr. Sacks/Robin Williams experiments with dopamine treatment in order to help stimulate the patients' brain chemistry and, after a time, they come back to life. They have a party for the patients...I think they take them out to a club or something. Everyone seems to be having a great time. In the course of the evening, Sacks asks his patients how they're doing, and is pleased to see them enjoying themselves. But when he approaches a woman in her, I don't know, late seventies-to-early eighties, who is obviously distressed in the extreme, and asks her if she needs anything, she responds, "I need it to be 1937."

My message in this thread (which didn't start out that way) and, generally, if I have any message at all, is that it's never too early to start getting the help we need, though there will be a time when it might be too late. And even if it isn't too late, why would anyone want to sacrifice any more time in life than we already have?

Delizadee

Endgame, you a smart cookie.
Thanks for your words. Your original post made me feel pretty damn bad, and rightly so.
I poured all my anger and resentments onto my ex yesterday and the day before.
I was one of THOSE people. And yes. Nobody would want to be me.
It was a good wake up call. I need to learn some humility in my self work. I know the anger is part of the denial.
But, hey. At least I'm working on it.

EndGameNYC

Struggling to improve ourselves is not common among the hopelessly bitter. You had an angry day. Or moment. Not the same thing as living an angry life. Maybe you'll have more. For me, it was part of the deal I signed when I got sober.

I wan't exactly the nicest person in the room when I was drinking, and I was no one's go-to guy for support in my lengthy period of early recovery. I had nothing meaningful to offer to anyone else; I only wanted to be left alone.

sleepie

Wow. That's frightening.

FarToGo

Great thread EndGame and contributors, very thought provoking.
xx

EndGameNYC

Yeah. Maybe.

2muchpain

I think what's most important is not why others do what they do, but how we internalize it. It's also true that people that lead miserable lives look for the weakest link to take their misery on. I think one of the worst examples of this is when someone plays the victim role. Their open targets for people to dump on them. But what I don't think most people realize is that in that situation, both the victim and the the people taking advantage of them benefit. They might moan and groan about how terrible their treated, but never make any changes to keep this from happening. They reinforce each other which just continues the cycle.
IMHO, building on self-esteem and realizing that self-worth is an inside job and has little to do with how people treat us is very important to not letting miserable people to dump their misery on us. I could be wrong, but I doubt miserable people would bother to take the time to go after someone who comes across as strong and confident. It took me a very long time to figure this out. I don't own their problems, only mine. John

hpdw

I want to be a better writer as i am so very imaginative and done so many good things as well as a whole lot of stupid things but never bad ( evil,nasty ) bad .
I'd buy a stranger a meal ,leave a £1 in the trolley then pilfer a chocolate bar in the works canteen ( good then silly ) .
Your right EndGame life is too short for pettiness . As per my earlier post Ive turned the other cheek so many times my face has turned tartan .

Delizadee

Very true, that is very much me John, to a T.
It is an inside job for sure and I have been working on self-confidence and often fake it til ya make it type deal. I'm very good at building a foundation for business or life relationships, but as time or trouble wears on, I hit a point where I run for the hills and hide, sucking my thumb and mentally bashing everyone.
When I got into some real recovery work the first go round I shed a lot of the victim feelings and with time a bit of the shame. This time around I'm just a hair trigger. I guess opening up about not just what I've done but what others have done to me and that it's NOT my fault has left me feeling raw and angry that I've been told to get over it and shut up about it my entire life.

Dude. I wanna be that kick ass confident chick who could give a ratstinkersfart about what other people think about me. Instead I project my own self-loathing onto others and assume they think the worst of me.
This thread definitely got me thinking. Especially with my BPD diagnosis. TRYING to work on things action wise instead of REaction.

2muchpain

Well, when you think about it, were only here for a very short time. 80 or 90 years really isn't much time. Maybe it's because I'm an old timer, but it goes quick. One minute your 30 and you wake up and your 50. Happens in a flash. It's so important to make each day a quality day and not let people get in your way of having a full life. Put down the drink, ignore negative people and make life an exciting adventure!! Make a to do list and do it. I am planning several trips, but also try to appreciate the great day to day stuff that happens. Even thinking of buying a camper trailer, hitching it up to my car and just go for it. I figure, why not? Life can be a pretty cool thing, but takes A LOT OF WORK to get around the obstacle course life throws at us. My advice is to not let negative people or life's challenges get in your way. I've been a drunk for around 30 years so I know a little about what I'm talking about. My to do list is pretty long and I just don't have time to either drink it away or let life keep me from doing it. And if I do allow these things to get in my way, it was my choice. Others might see things differently and I can respect that, but for me, I am responsible for my life. John

2muchpain

Dilizadee, good for you for making the progress you have done. For many years, every time something went wrong at work, I figured it was my fault. Every time someone dumped something on me, I figured I deserved it. The only way to get any relief from this was to drink myself silly. The thing is, not everything is my fault and nobody cared if I drank myself to oblivion.
There are times when other people are wrong and I was right. There were also time when I know I did the right thing, even though others said otherwise. This has nothing to do with ego, it has everything to do with balance.
I also had to learn to take credit for my accompolishments and not feel bad about it. If I did something good, I'll feel good about it and even sometimes make a point to others about it. Nothings wrong with that. Anybody with low self esteem knows the importance of that. Blow your horn!!!! I know longer hide my successes because I don't feel I deserve them. I worked hard for those successes and am proud of them, and I'm sure you have worked hard at your achievements. It has nothing to do with ego, but everything to with taking pride in yourself. Digging out of the hole of alcoholism and bettering yourself is something to be proud of. Taking hold of addiction is something few can understand, but those that do know understand how hard it is to climb out of that dark hole and make a good life. I think alcoholics and drug addicts are some of the strongest people in the world. A lot can be learned from them, John

EndGameNYC

Yes. It is. And it tends to leave a lasting impression on those who witness it.

Soberpotamus

Funny you mention Awakenings, EndGame. I watched it again recently. It had been quite a while since I first watched it. Anyway, it was deeply disturbing to me on some level. Maybe it triggered feelings in me about my mom's death (she was sedated, in an induced coma for two months after a drug overdose), and me being the one to let her go and all. Anyway, yes, that lady who wanted it to be 1930-whatever... such an overwhelming sadness came over me. Many what-ifs and what-could-have-been came to mind. The ethics of administering the drug, and to see them wake up after years of living as ghosts of themselves... so heartrending. That is such a hard thing.

I watched that movie to try to help me deal with guilt over the way my mom died. Plus, I find Oliver Sacks fascinating.

EndGameNYC

I hit five years last Saturday. The meeting where I celebrate does so on the last Saturday of each month. I celebrate with another guy with whom I've become good friends since I got sober. I got cake and my five-year coin.

When I relapsed after twenty five years, one of the first things I did when I stopped taking care of myself in the ways that helped me to stay sober was to stop celebrating my anniversary. "It's no big deal. It's for new people to celebrate. No one really cares." Whatever. If I were a psychologist, I might interpret this as meaning that I didn't care very much for myself, and that my sobriety was likely in jeopardy. (Ya see, I can do that, because it's about me. I learned long ago that I can't hurt my own feelings unless I really want to. And I don't want to.)

My sponsor died of renal failure five weeks ago after struggling with cancer for several months, same age as I am. Though he would never acknowledge it, always telling me that it was me who got sober whenever it came up, he played an important role in my recovery. I didn't need him to be my friend, my personal ATM or my therapist. I didn't need him to give me advice on how to get a job or to find a suitable place to live. I needed him to help me get sober, and that's what he did. I disagreed with him on several important issues in life, but neither of us cared and, ultimately, what did that have to do with my getting sober, and what did it really matter?

He wasn't my first choice, more like dumped in my lap, and I didn't care. I did exactly what I did to achieve long-term sobriety the first time around: I put aside my ego and took every suggestion that he and other people who got sober were generous enough to give me. And I did the work.

When we first started working our way through the AA Big Book, he asked me, "Do you believe in God? This is a "God" program." He was a devout Catholic and a believer. I told him that I wasn't sure, but probably not. At least not the way he believed in God. He told me that was okay for now, and that we'd figure out later on. We never did, and he never brought it up again.

Though I rarely looked forward to meeting with him once or twice a week, his helping me to focus on getting sober -- which I did at the exclusion of most everything else during my first two years -- eventually brought me to a better place, though I didn't always think of it in that way at the time. If you'd told me in advance that I would probably need about two years to get myself settled in sobriety and in life, I'd likely have checked my wallet and then head for the door. But, I mean, what was two years for me after pissing away about fifteen years of my life, destroying a career for which I had spent a great deal of time, effort and money creating, and ruining virtually every meaningful relationship in my life? What was it? It was a leap of faith that my life would get better, that I would get better, by doing the work, by changing my life in every significant way, including my thinking, and by taking a leap of faith that I would find a better way.

I got busy after he died. The reality that nothing is guaranteed in life, that nothing is forever, and that living a life without purpose is the only mortal sin, at least for me, carried more immediacy. I began making some changes and renewed my commitment to living a better life. Getting sober and living a good life was not, and could never be, a DIY affair for me.

Though I often seen it framed in this way, I never comment on what the "key" to sobriety is, or what was most important in my getting sober. I don't honestly know, and simple answers to complex problems tend to disturb me. What I do know, and what I've stated here many times, is that if I have any hope of living in any way that is meaningful for me, then I first need to put down the drink. No matter what. I also know that support, real-life human support, carries powerful survival value and opens the door to experiencing genuine human contact and, ultimately, can lead to the experience of love. It's simply impossible to discover one's meaning in life (or is it the other way around?) or to experience love in isolation. Or to think our way into a better life. I'm more than willing to bear any criticism that says that "Everybody's different," "It's not one-size-fits-all," or that "what works for someone doesn't work for everybody else." I've yet to hear a good case for living a good life, even just living life, without emotional support from other people. We are all much more alike than otherwise.

When people die while still drinking, many of them have been putting off, or are in the process of putting off, getting sober until they're "ready," until the time is right, until their sobriety date falls on an even day in a leap year, until they lose their job or get a new job, until the graduate or fail out of school, until they find their "soul mate..." If my sponsor had only put it off for eight more years, he would have lived his entire adult life never knowing what it is to be sober.

fini

EndGame,
congratulations on the anniversary, and thanks for the angle on the cake-and-celebration thing. it's timely, since i have an anniversary coming up and decided on no cake. your comments are making me reconsider.

condolences on the death of your sponsor. your words about the relationship and recent speaking of Oliver Sacks brings to mind his latest book, published right around his death, titled "Gratitude".
i'm number 73 on the library waiting list
i have no doubt it will be worth the wait.