Sounds a bit like original sin
Catch 22
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: South Africa
Posts: 327
Sounds a bit like original sin
I am wondering about the AA step four. List all your character defects. Why?
Not to sound contrite but I really do not have that many. I am a hard working honest decent person. I am law abiding, I try not to hurt others and I live with courage and humour.
Sure I get irritated with stupid people but I mostly try not to show it. I am no better nor worse than most. I have been a drinker all my adult life but apart from to myself I doubt if much harm was done.
The decision to not drink was for myself only. Primarily if not exclusively for my health.
Why must I list my defects. I live the best life I can and will continue to do so. Not drinking did not change my character, it only changed my behaviour.
The Big Book and the Really Big Book. Always telling us how bad we are and how redemption can only come from "a" higher power or "the" Higher Power. ....errr....I don't think so.
Not to sound contrite but I really do not have that many. I am a hard working honest decent person. I am law abiding, I try not to hurt others and I live with courage and humour.
Sure I get irritated with stupid people but I mostly try not to show it. I am no better nor worse than most. I have been a drinker all my adult life but apart from to myself I doubt if much harm was done.
The decision to not drink was for myself only. Primarily if not exclusively for my health.
Why must I list my defects. I live the best life I can and will continue to do so. Not drinking did not change my character, it only changed my behaviour.
The Big Book and the Really Big Book. Always telling us how bad we are and how redemption can only come from "a" higher power or "the" Higher Power. ....errr....I don't think so.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 76
Sometimes good people do bad things...
I think there's a difference between being "bad" and doing bad things.
I can't comment specifically on the steps because I haven't worked any of them --but I can understand why it's important to examine our faults so that we can become better, stronger people.
It's sort of empowering to look your flaws right the face and say, "I see you. I know you're there, but I'm stronger than you."
I can't comment specifically on the steps because I haven't worked any of them --but I can understand why it's important to examine our faults so that we can become better, stronger people.
It's sort of empowering to look your flaws right the face and say, "I see you. I know you're there, but I'm stronger than you."
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
Well...I was told Pride is one of those..
I am certain there is something in all of us that can be made better.
If you don't want to do the 4th Step, why not wait until you're ready? I know I was pretty sure I ran the Universe when I first became sober. Humility is hard-won and something I have to continually be mindful of cultivating.
As far as Original Sin - the program does have a Christian slant. I'm Christian, so I didn't really have a problem with that. All humans have faults, no one is exempt.
I do agree that guilt is overrated, but the guilt and shame we put on ourselves is definitely something that is worth removing.
I am certain there is something in all of us that can be made better.
If you don't want to do the 4th Step, why not wait until you're ready? I know I was pretty sure I ran the Universe when I first became sober. Humility is hard-won and something I have to continually be mindful of cultivating.
As far as Original Sin - the program does have a Christian slant. I'm Christian, so I didn't really have a problem with that. All humans have faults, no one is exempt.
I do agree that guilt is overrated, but the guilt and shame we put on ourselves is definitely something that is worth removing.
NA Member - Atheist
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Middletown CT USA
Posts: 770
Even as an atheist I was able to work at the steps of NA/AA.
You can use many different words to describe the same thing. Defects, shortcomings, or simply distorted perceptions, or maladaptive behaviors. The way that I navigated life was flawed. I found that my perceptions were often quite off. Likewise, I found that my approach to life often produced poor results. Recovery is not about abstinence. It is about examining what drove us to use in the first place and altering our behavior and thinking.
It helps to think of step four as looking at your hand in a game of poker. You get to see what cards you want to keep, and which ones you would rather place on the discard pile. I found that I had assets, but also liabilities. Certain behaviors and attitudes were creating a poor quality of life for me and those around me.
I'm not suggesting that you switch fellowships, however you might want to take a look at the narcotics anonymous basic text and their book it works how and why. I found out that literature Connected with me better.
You can use many different words to describe the same thing. Defects, shortcomings, or simply distorted perceptions, or maladaptive behaviors. The way that I navigated life was flawed. I found that my perceptions were often quite off. Likewise, I found that my approach to life often produced poor results. Recovery is not about abstinence. It is about examining what drove us to use in the first place and altering our behavior and thinking.
It helps to think of step four as looking at your hand in a game of poker. You get to see what cards you want to keep, and which ones you would rather place on the discard pile. I found that I had assets, but also liabilities. Certain behaviors and attitudes were creating a poor quality of life for me and those around me.
I'm not suggesting that you switch fellowships, however you might want to take a look at the narcotics anonymous basic text and their book it works how and why. I found out that literature Connected with me better.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 322
I'm new at the steps, but we had a discussion at AA this morning that relates to this topic. Just because it says to list defects, doesn't mean the list has to be long. If you only find one, list it and that should suffice. Please don't make up defects just to have a "list", I don't think that's what it is all about.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
have you ever taken your car in for an oil change and the mechanic comes out says - thought you would want to know that your tranny fluid is low, there is a belt loose on the radiator, one of your hoses has a small leak and your air filter is clogged and we RECOMMEND you attend to these things soon to keep your car running well.
or sometimes they mention a very serious problem that had gone undetected until they popped the hood and EXAMINED the engine.
the CAR isn't BAD. the faulty hose isn't BAD, it just needs to be replaced. that is kind of what the inventory is like. there are lots of step guides of all different flavors, and as many methods as there are people. for me i just wrote out my story....well i did it twice actually.....in my first step, which my sponsor later pointed out was more about what THEY did or events that happened, and then in my 4th i focused more on me, how i reacted, responded, the choices i made, the faulty thinking that may or may not have been my fault (i grew up in an alcoholic home so there was a whole network of lies and myths).
then when i had done the best i could at the time, we sat down and did my 5th. i think i did 3 or 4 4th/5th steps in my first three years as it turns out more was revealed.
or sometimes they mention a very serious problem that had gone undetected until they popped the hood and EXAMINED the engine.
the CAR isn't BAD. the faulty hose isn't BAD, it just needs to be replaced. that is kind of what the inventory is like. there are lots of step guides of all different flavors, and as many methods as there are people. for me i just wrote out my story....well i did it twice actually.....in my first step, which my sponsor later pointed out was more about what THEY did or events that happened, and then in my 4th i focused more on me, how i reacted, responded, the choices i made, the faulty thinking that may or may not have been my fault (i grew up in an alcoholic home so there was a whole network of lies and myths).
then when i had done the best i could at the time, we sat down and did my 5th. i think i did 3 or 4 4th/5th steps in my first three years as it turns out more was revealed.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
Well, lots of people decide to get sober because they don't like some of things that they have done / do - you might have noticed posts talking about feeling shame. Hating themselves. That kind of stuff. If you've never felt that way you're pretty lucky. Amazingly lucky to be completely free of character defects as well.
Personally I struggle with being a bit selfish at times. And fearful. And selfish - my ego tells me that what I want or need should come above what other people want or need, and I start getting a bit narky when other people don't share that particular priority. Sometimes I can be a bit lazy - and then that causes me issues when things don't work out well for me at home or work because I didn't do what I should have in time. I can get a bit resentful about stuff too, which also causes me problems, because, after all, who really enjoys feeling angry and harping on and on about the same old thing in their head for hours on end? Also, I can be a little dishonest. Not for MY sake you understand. I just like to keep people happy by telling them what they would prefer to hear. *eyeroll* Anyway. You get the picture.
I can say all that now, because I can see it now. I have come to understand that a lot of my fears and resentments stem from, or are the result of thoughts or actions that were the result of my character defects. Previously I just thought the world was conspiring against me, and I was really, really unlucky, and has always had completely unfair bosses, partners and friends. Obviously, just because I understand what my main character defects are, doesn't mean I woke up without them the next day. BUT, it means that I can recognise when they are causing me issues and change the way I deal with things. I am watchful for my pride, selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, fear and laziness, and when these things crop up, I deal with it accordingly rather than just carry on like I used to (because that was wasn't making me very happy ).
Any yes. A lot of this does correlate to the sins that people talk about in Christianity. But, to be fair, the same in every religion. And people who are not religiosity at all will generally not think that being dishonest or selfish or lazy are great character attributes.
Anyway. No one is making anyone work the steps as far as I know. If you don't want it, don't do it.
Personally I struggle with being a bit selfish at times. And fearful. And selfish - my ego tells me that what I want or need should come above what other people want or need, and I start getting a bit narky when other people don't share that particular priority. Sometimes I can be a bit lazy - and then that causes me issues when things don't work out well for me at home or work because I didn't do what I should have in time. I can get a bit resentful about stuff too, which also causes me problems, because, after all, who really enjoys feeling angry and harping on and on about the same old thing in their head for hours on end? Also, I can be a little dishonest. Not for MY sake you understand. I just like to keep people happy by telling them what they would prefer to hear. *eyeroll* Anyway. You get the picture.
I can say all that now, because I can see it now. I have come to understand that a lot of my fears and resentments stem from, or are the result of thoughts or actions that were the result of my character defects. Previously I just thought the world was conspiring against me, and I was really, really unlucky, and has always had completely unfair bosses, partners and friends. Obviously, just because I understand what my main character defects are, doesn't mean I woke up without them the next day. BUT, it means that I can recognise when they are causing me issues and change the way I deal with things. I am watchful for my pride, selfishness, dishonesty, resentment, fear and laziness, and when these things crop up, I deal with it accordingly rather than just carry on like I used to (because that was wasn't making me very happy ).
Any yes. A lot of this does correlate to the sins that people talk about in Christianity. But, to be fair, the same in every religion. And people who are not religiosity at all will generally not think that being dishonest or selfish or lazy are great character attributes.
Anyway. No one is making anyone work the steps as far as I know. If you don't want it, don't do it.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
PS. For my step 4 I did a number of lists...
HARMS (things I'd done that harmed others)
RESENTMENTS (reasons you're peed off with others)
SEX / RELATIONSHIPS
FEARS (things you worry about)
Are you actually doing the steps with a sponsor. If you're at all worried, just have a chat with them. Also worth reading that chapter in the 12 and 12. My sponsor gave me a format to work from, so your sponsor may well have something they can show you so you know what it will entail.
This step isn't about castigating ourselves. It's about self-awareness and growth.
HARMS (things I'd done that harmed others)
RESENTMENTS (reasons you're peed off with others)
SEX / RELATIONSHIPS
FEARS (things you worry about)
Are you actually doing the steps with a sponsor. If you're at all worried, just have a chat with them. Also worth reading that chapter in the 12 and 12. My sponsor gave me a format to work from, so your sponsor may well have something they can show you so you know what it will entail.
This step isn't about castigating ourselves. It's about self-awareness and growth.
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Originally Posted by fripfrop 
OMG I accidently came into the 12 step forum 
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 6,902
Nice to see you venturing onto some other threads FF. There are plenty that don't have a 12-step focus where you can offer your support and encouragement.
If you're not interested in someone's thread no one's forcing you to contribute to it.
If you're not interested in someone's thread no one's forcing you to contribute to it.
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Originally Posted by fripfrop
Are you sure thats what the rules say?
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ting-tips.html
Giving up is NOT an option.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 7,808
"This step isn't about castigating ourselves. It's about self-awareness and growth."
This. Don't think of it only as a list of defects. Try to think about how you have reacted to situations or people - are you happy with your behaviors at all times? If it helps, don't use the word "defects." Substitute "defenses." We all try to protect ourselves from certain situations in life and certain people. It's only natural. But in the process of doing so, almost all of us have hurt others in some way.
This. Don't think of it only as a list of defects. Try to think about how you have reacted to situations or people - are you happy with your behaviors at all times? If it helps, don't use the word "defects." Substitute "defenses." We all try to protect ourselves from certain situations in life and certain people. It's only natural. But in the process of doing so, almost all of us have hurt others in some way.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: former texan
Posts: 216
I've seen many a newcomer thread here where the poster is questioning in some part either the AA method or another one. In general, people are helpful and discuss why the method was useful or not to them. I've never seen a moderater move the thread, so I have always assumed it was ok to discuss my plan and my program/sponsor over here.
I tend to only stick to the newcomer threads so it does feel reasonable that those in early recovery would have a lot of questions, concerns, or even resentment towards one or more of the steps in AA. I know there's been a ton of ones where people are upset with the God question, and the higher power being the answer.
I think it's helpful for everyone to see that recovery is hard. And it's work. And I appreciate the honestly from people struggling through this.
If we could just have quit, we would have!
I am going to answer the poster:
I hated doing my step 4. I took me months to finally write it all out and be honest about it. Honesty with myself is something that had to be fought for. I became sober first without honesty.
Sometimes while doing it I got angry with it, I resented it, wanted to throw it against a wall! But finally one quiet Sunday morning I took it back out and said I am not stopping until I'm done.
And I did. And I felt, I don't know, something like relief? Relieved I had done it, but as I flipped through and read everything I'd written, relieved to see that I had been honest like never before.
Try to remember that the big book was written a looooong time ago.
Old Bill was heavy on the sex stuff. A lot of the language they used to write the first edition is pretty antiquated stuff now.
I used to call my sponsor when I'd be doing this and say "really, why does the sex question come up on every sheet??" and she'd laugh and remind me again that this was started a very long time ago in a different era.
Character defects - I know that sounds bad. I am pretty sure we all have them, but we wouldn't necessarily say - Hey Judy, wanna here some of my defects? I think of it more as statements like - I hate when I feel jealous of others. I hate when I gossip information that was not mine to spread. I hate it that I get tongue tied around my boss.
If your list is short, great for you! I also think I'm a nice person to know. I try hard to be kind. But I also did a lot of things in my life I'm not proud of. Part of my sobriety is accepting that old Irnldy was who she was and did what she did. Doing my step 4 helped me come to some acceptance over who I have been, and makes me want to be a better me.
Hope this helps
I tend to only stick to the newcomer threads so it does feel reasonable that those in early recovery would have a lot of questions, concerns, or even resentment towards one or more of the steps in AA. I know there's been a ton of ones where people are upset with the God question, and the higher power being the answer.
I think it's helpful for everyone to see that recovery is hard. And it's work. And I appreciate the honestly from people struggling through this.
If we could just have quit, we would have!
I am going to answer the poster:
I hated doing my step 4. I took me months to finally write it all out and be honest about it. Honesty with myself is something that had to be fought for. I became sober first without honesty.
Sometimes while doing it I got angry with it, I resented it, wanted to throw it against a wall! But finally one quiet Sunday morning I took it back out and said I am not stopping until I'm done.
And I did. And I felt, I don't know, something like relief? Relieved I had done it, but as I flipped through and read everything I'd written, relieved to see that I had been honest like never before.
Try to remember that the big book was written a looooong time ago.
Old Bill was heavy on the sex stuff. A lot of the language they used to write the first edition is pretty antiquated stuff now.
I used to call my sponsor when I'd be doing this and say "really, why does the sex question come up on every sheet??" and she'd laugh and remind me again that this was started a very long time ago in a different era.
Character defects - I know that sounds bad. I am pretty sure we all have them, but we wouldn't necessarily say - Hey Judy, wanna here some of my defects? I think of it more as statements like - I hate when I feel jealous of others. I hate when I gossip information that was not mine to spread. I hate it that I get tongue tied around my boss.
If your list is short, great for you! I also think I'm a nice person to know. I try hard to be kind. But I also did a lot of things in my life I'm not proud of. Part of my sobriety is accepting that old Irnldy was who she was and did what she did. Doing my step 4 helped me come to some acceptance over who I have been, and makes me want to be a better me.
Hope this helps
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Inglind
Posts: 610
Originally Posted by Berrybean
Nice to see you venturing onto some other threads FF. There are plenty that don't have a 12-step focus where you can offer your support and encouragement.
If you're not interested in someone's thread no one's forcing you to contribute to it.
If you're not interested in someone's thread no one's forcing you to contribute to it.
Giving up is NOT an option.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Western Wisconsin
Posts: 7,808
Newcomers doesn't have any focus. It's just supposed to be a safe place for newcomers to introduce themselves and ask questions. It just so happens this person had a question about an AA step.
Forum Leader
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wisconsin, USA
Posts: 16,945
Several posts have been removed from this thread. I will re-iterate one more time that discussion of ALL recovery methods is welcome in this forum. Debates and personal arguments are not allowed.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: co
Posts: 329
I actually like reading this post, as with any post it just opens my eyes to more discussion about how to stay stopped. I read somewhere recently I need to be like a sponge with recovery tecniques, I never know what might stick.
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