New Here--and suffering from PAWS
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Join Date: May 2016
Location: West Coast USA
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New Here--and suffering from PAWS
First, thanks to everyone who has shared their experiences here. I came cross this forum after a internet search and have found the info here most useful.
My background--functional alcoholic, six years of mostly nightly drinking, anywhere from 2 to 6 drinks on average. Quit drinking and smoking cigarettes 2/1/2016, primarily out of gratitude for surviving an unrelated health condition that could have gone very wrong but for the docs, luck, and perhaps a higher power. I decided after getting the good news that that was that--no mas. The cigarettes were more difficult that the booze, probably because I had tapered back from nightly drinking during the health scare (September 2015 to 2/1/2016.)
Why I'm here: I managed to quit drinking with no acute effects (I don't know why that is so--I wasn't taking pain meds or anything) but about 30 days in I started to notice problems with my short term memory. On the 11th of April, I was suddenly overcome with feelings of dread, irritation, pessimism (I am normally a ridiculously optimistic person) during a phone call. These feelings cycled on and off for days, sometimes lasting only a minute, other times almost an entire day, sometimes I'd wake up with it, most of the time it would descend suddenly. My thinking became 'flat' and dark, everything was 'wrong' and the past became this thing that was merely a succession of failures. Then I'd snap out of it for a while.
Unbelievable. I had not heard of PAWS before. Fortunately my docs have heard of it and now I'm signed up for CBT, Anxiety management, and I'm taking a small dose of gabapentin (very small) which to date has evened out the spikes and quelled, but not eliminated the anxiety. My cognitive processes pretty much go off-line when it strikes, but at least I don't feel like I'm losing my mind anymore...
My question: I've read many threads in this forum on the subject, and I've come to take heart--this will pass eventually and I can feel it moderating somewhat, especially compared to a few weeks ago. But what I would like to know or hear about is this--what is "post PAWS" like and how do you know when you get there?
I harbor no illusions that I am going to go back to some kind of 'normal' that was bracketed by alcoholic episodes. Whatever has happened all these years definitely made a change. I'm hoping that with abstinence, diet, exercise, therapy (not just for alcoholism) and a good support system, I'm likely to come out of this better than before--but 'where' am I going to come out? Right now my head feels like it's stuffed with cotton and half the time I can only think in circles with a ringing noise in my ears. Irritating--not the end of the world--but man! do I want off of this ride!
Thanks again to all who have shared their experiences--it's been very helpful! 👍
My background--functional alcoholic, six years of mostly nightly drinking, anywhere from 2 to 6 drinks on average. Quit drinking and smoking cigarettes 2/1/2016, primarily out of gratitude for surviving an unrelated health condition that could have gone very wrong but for the docs, luck, and perhaps a higher power. I decided after getting the good news that that was that--no mas. The cigarettes were more difficult that the booze, probably because I had tapered back from nightly drinking during the health scare (September 2015 to 2/1/2016.)
Why I'm here: I managed to quit drinking with no acute effects (I don't know why that is so--I wasn't taking pain meds or anything) but about 30 days in I started to notice problems with my short term memory. On the 11th of April, I was suddenly overcome with feelings of dread, irritation, pessimism (I am normally a ridiculously optimistic person) during a phone call. These feelings cycled on and off for days, sometimes lasting only a minute, other times almost an entire day, sometimes I'd wake up with it, most of the time it would descend suddenly. My thinking became 'flat' and dark, everything was 'wrong' and the past became this thing that was merely a succession of failures. Then I'd snap out of it for a while.
Unbelievable. I had not heard of PAWS before. Fortunately my docs have heard of it and now I'm signed up for CBT, Anxiety management, and I'm taking a small dose of gabapentin (very small) which to date has evened out the spikes and quelled, but not eliminated the anxiety. My cognitive processes pretty much go off-line when it strikes, but at least I don't feel like I'm losing my mind anymore...
My question: I've read many threads in this forum on the subject, and I've come to take heart--this will pass eventually and I can feel it moderating somewhat, especially compared to a few weeks ago. But what I would like to know or hear about is this--what is "post PAWS" like and how do you know when you get there?
I harbor no illusions that I am going to go back to some kind of 'normal' that was bracketed by alcoholic episodes. Whatever has happened all these years definitely made a change. I'm hoping that with abstinence, diet, exercise, therapy (not just for alcoholism) and a good support system, I'm likely to come out of this better than before--but 'where' am I going to come out? Right now my head feels like it's stuffed with cotton and half the time I can only think in circles with a ringing noise in my ears. Irritating--not the end of the world--but man! do I want off of this ride!
Thanks again to all who have shared their experiences--it's been very helpful! 👍
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: US East Coast
Posts: 14,285
Welcome, Kris!
I personally didn't have really noticeable PAWS but at my advanced age I already have the lapses and such. In the time I've been posting here I've read many people's experiences with PAWS. It can take some time to get past and there doesn't seem to me to be a specific time frame. I've heard of some who suffer with it for around a year, others less.
One of the keys, I suspect is learning acceptance. Be reassured that it does pass with continued abstinence. Some people feel rather "flat" emotionally during that time and later they come to feel much better and enjoy their lives so much more!
I've found reading and posting here to be invaluable for my journey.
Congratulations on making the commitment!
I personally didn't have really noticeable PAWS but at my advanced age I already have the lapses and such. In the time I've been posting here I've read many people's experiences with PAWS. It can take some time to get past and there doesn't seem to me to be a specific time frame. I've heard of some who suffer with it for around a year, others less.
One of the keys, I suspect is learning acceptance. Be reassured that it does pass with continued abstinence. Some people feel rather "flat" emotionally during that time and later they come to feel much better and enjoy their lives so much more!
I've found reading and posting here to be invaluable for my journey.
Congratulations on making the commitment!
Into the Void
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: California
Posts: 931
Hi Kris,
Congrats on quitting booze and cigarettes, that is quite an achievement!
PAWS is something that is very different for different people and some lucky people don't get it at all. Others have an awful time of it. I didn't have the effects you are describing but more just a general moodiness and lack of enjoyment. That seems to have gotten a bit better after one year. I think people will say that PAWS tends to last between 6 months and 2 years. Good luck! I'm pretty sure you will get back to feeling normal at some point.
Congrats on quitting booze and cigarettes, that is quite an achievement!
PAWS is something that is very different for different people and some lucky people don't get it at all. Others have an awful time of it. I didn't have the effects you are describing but more just a general moodiness and lack of enjoyment. That seems to have gotten a bit better after one year. I think people will say that PAWS tends to last between 6 months and 2 years. Good luck! I'm pretty sure you will get back to feeling normal at some point.
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Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 701
Hi Kris, welcome and congratulations on your sober time!
I too suffered from PAWS, not exactly what you are describing but not totally different, either. My episodes peaked at probably 5 or 6 months, then started to become spaced farther apart and less intense. I will be 20 months sober in a couple of weeks and haven't had an episode in several months.
I have heard that it takes some people 2 years to really feel "normal". Not to say it takes that long to feel good, but to really heal and retrain our brains, and to fully reap the benefits of sobriety. I've seen some disagreements posted on the subject, but I believe it's probably a pretty fair time frame. But, everyone is different and I'm sure there are a multitude of factors to consider.
Something that I read once really stood out and helped me cope with my PAWS episodes. It said to think of it as your brain healing. After I read that, each time PAWS would pop up I would think the discomfort as having a purpose, which was to heal my brain. For whatever reason, I found comfort in that thought process. It also helped knowing that it goes away as quickly as it comes on.
Hang in there, it does get better.
I too suffered from PAWS, not exactly what you are describing but not totally different, either. My episodes peaked at probably 5 or 6 months, then started to become spaced farther apart and less intense. I will be 20 months sober in a couple of weeks and haven't had an episode in several months.
I have heard that it takes some people 2 years to really feel "normal". Not to say it takes that long to feel good, but to really heal and retrain our brains, and to fully reap the benefits of sobriety. I've seen some disagreements posted on the subject, but I believe it's probably a pretty fair time frame. But, everyone is different and I'm sure there are a multitude of factors to consider.
Something that I read once really stood out and helped me cope with my PAWS episodes. It said to think of it as your brain healing. After I read that, each time PAWS would pop up I would think the discomfort as having a purpose, which was to heal my brain. For whatever reason, I found comfort in that thought process. It also helped knowing that it goes away as quickly as it comes on.
Hang in there, it does get better.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 526
personally i don't believe in paws or any other made up diseases.
as professional alcoholic with a career of at least fifteen years, i have suffered greatly when relapsing, when recovering, when relapsing again and staying sober. i've been sober for a while now, but i still have miserable days.
i can attribute it to paws or gad or ptsd or any other name, or it could just be a bad day like everyone else is experiencing.
the on thing i've learned is that i tend to get more anxiety about the anxiety itself than the the real-world situation. somehow when push came to shove it was alright.
you are strong enough to be sober. you are definitely strong enough to bear a few crappy days.
don't get yourself filled with negative and unnecessary information. focus on progress, exercise and eat well (don't drink obviously). it's simple, but not easy.
every doctor will tell you about homeostasis, body's natural ability to heal itself and it's not just getting better from a cold, it's a mental recovery as well ... all you have to do is give it the right nourishment both mindful and in the foods you eat, two are closely connected as it should be no surprise.
as professional alcoholic with a career of at least fifteen years, i have suffered greatly when relapsing, when recovering, when relapsing again and staying sober. i've been sober for a while now, but i still have miserable days.
i can attribute it to paws or gad or ptsd or any other name, or it could just be a bad day like everyone else is experiencing.
the on thing i've learned is that i tend to get more anxiety about the anxiety itself than the the real-world situation. somehow when push came to shove it was alright.
you are strong enough to be sober. you are definitely strong enough to bear a few crappy days.
don't get yourself filled with negative and unnecessary information. focus on progress, exercise and eat well (don't drink obviously). it's simple, but not easy.
every doctor will tell you about homeostasis, body's natural ability to heal itself and it's not just getting better from a cold, it's a mental recovery as well ... all you have to do is give it the right nourishment both mindful and in the foods you eat, two are closely connected as it should be no surprise.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: US East Coast
Posts: 14,285
I've also never heard of PAWS being classified as a disease. It seems to me to encompass the process of our brains healing from the effects of alcohol. Once we stop drinking, the healing begins and can take a very short amount of time on up to a year or two. That doesn't mean that it's as bad later on!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 486
I have experienced it before, this time (at 68 days) not so much except for acute insomnia, which I just deal with with naps and sleep when I can when not at work.
I have heard up to two years but I have heard it definitely is from person to person. I've never gone two years without alcohol, but I did go 10 months once and I felt pretty normal at that point.
But this time I'm fine besides the sleeplessness, which is tolerable.
I love what FormerWineGirl says above: If you can think of it as your brain in healing mode, and not in damaged mode, I think that would give you a more positive perspective.
Regardless, I have NEVER heard of an alcoholic NEVER getting over it, but I HAVE heard that even a few drinks here and there puts you right back on day one---like a scab that you keep injuring. Keep going strong!
I have heard up to two years but I have heard it definitely is from person to person. I've never gone two years without alcohol, but I did go 10 months once and I felt pretty normal at that point.
But this time I'm fine besides the sleeplessness, which is tolerable.
I love what FormerWineGirl says above: If you can think of it as your brain in healing mode, and not in damaged mode, I think that would give you a more positive perspective.
Regardless, I have NEVER heard of an alcoholic NEVER getting over it, but I HAVE heard that even a few drinks here and there puts you right back on day one---like a scab that you keep injuring. Keep going strong!
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Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 103
Hi Kris... I can't really answer any questions for you, but just say I can seriously relate. I feel like I could have written your original post, only you do such a better job descrihingvthe symptoms than I could ever do. My timeline is almost identical to yours.... I quit 1/28/16, started noticing weird memory problems about a month in, then some serious anxiety episodes started around mid April. The anxiety seems to last about 2 or 3 days, then goes away. Ive had 3 of these anxiety attacks now. Im taking L-theanine for the anxiety... its an herbal remedy a friend told me about, found in the vitamin section at my local pharmacy. It seems to heIp. Also, having irritability and loss of joy, which I only recently started experiencing. I also quit smoking in November 2015. Like you, I am just riding this out and having faith that it will pass. Good job on 3 months sober btw 😁
O-n K-a-r A-r-r-e-s-t
Join Date: May 2016
Location: US
Posts: 600
I've heard about PAWS before. I believe I do have those symptoms every time I stop drinking for a period of time. I wonder how much of my anxiety and brain fog that I always seem to have is something that would go away if I could stop for at least 2 years and give it time to work itself out.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2016
Location: West Coast USA
Posts: 33
Thank you everyone for the kind and thorough responses--these perspectives are valuable! Funny thing--when I had read a couple of weeks ago that this could go on for a couple of years, I *almost* wanted to toss myself out a window (not really--it was an emotional response)--but that was a couple of weeks ago. The symptoms have moderated somewhat, and if it keeps tapering down, two years would actually be OK (I put that there for anyone else who comes along wondering about that issue--it's not two years of the worst symptoms.)
Another thing, and this too may be important or useful to someone else: there's a fair number of symptoms associated with this thing, and I have most of them, to varying degrees (ex: lack of joy is a minor one--I can usually muster interest in the things I like except when I'm preoccupied with anxiety; desire to drink, *none whatsoever*--but I'm not kidding myself about that one--this could change when I'm feeling good!; thinking problems, moderate while it's happening--find myself going in circles, flat thinking, very narrow view, impossible to plan or review the past correctly... ) The most striking thing about this is how pessimism will suddenly descend like a cloud over me--and what's striking is that it will arise for *no discernible reason whatsoever and then try to find something to clothe itself in.*
By way of example--a close family member has received very very good news a few weeks ago. Upon hearing this, I was very happy and proud--one of those really nice things that comes along once in a while.
When the pessimism descends and I think about this wonderful event, instead of having the same feelings and perspective, suddenly it's all gloom and doom--'what's it all mean in the long run? we're all gonna die anyway' blah blah blah and then when the cloud lifts--poof!--my perspective returns and sometimes I sit there with my mouth open wondering 'how on earth did I do that!?' Such an extreme shift in thinking.
That's one example of many. It seems what happens is the feeling comes, then it latches on to the closest thing it can to "explain itself." What I try to do is watch it--eventually it fades (sometimes it takes hours, but it's not as overwhelming as before) and then my perspective returns, often with a sense of relief.
The reason why I mention all of this--I have read many personal accounts of people suffering terribly from such a view. It may be quite likely that their pessimism is grounded in events related to the role alcohol has played in their life. HOWEVER, it may also be possible that some of this pessimism (or other negative state) may be simply be grounded in these 'brain-farts' we call PAWS. If it's the latter, and the sufferer doesn't know about the 'rewiring' and healing going on, I can imagine it would be most discouraging--and unnecessarily so!
I hope someone finds all that verbiage useful. Just paying it back to the community.
If you feel crappy--it may not be that your life is in fact crappy--it may just be a mood related to brain chemistry and recovery.
Another thing, and this too may be important or useful to someone else: there's a fair number of symptoms associated with this thing, and I have most of them, to varying degrees (ex: lack of joy is a minor one--I can usually muster interest in the things I like except when I'm preoccupied with anxiety; desire to drink, *none whatsoever*--but I'm not kidding myself about that one--this could change when I'm feeling good!; thinking problems, moderate while it's happening--find myself going in circles, flat thinking, very narrow view, impossible to plan or review the past correctly... ) The most striking thing about this is how pessimism will suddenly descend like a cloud over me--and what's striking is that it will arise for *no discernible reason whatsoever and then try to find something to clothe itself in.*
By way of example--a close family member has received very very good news a few weeks ago. Upon hearing this, I was very happy and proud--one of those really nice things that comes along once in a while.
When the pessimism descends and I think about this wonderful event, instead of having the same feelings and perspective, suddenly it's all gloom and doom--'what's it all mean in the long run? we're all gonna die anyway' blah blah blah and then when the cloud lifts--poof!--my perspective returns and sometimes I sit there with my mouth open wondering 'how on earth did I do that!?' Such an extreme shift in thinking.
That's one example of many. It seems what happens is the feeling comes, then it latches on to the closest thing it can to "explain itself." What I try to do is watch it--eventually it fades (sometimes it takes hours, but it's not as overwhelming as before) and then my perspective returns, often with a sense of relief.
The reason why I mention all of this--I have read many personal accounts of people suffering terribly from such a view. It may be quite likely that their pessimism is grounded in events related to the role alcohol has played in their life. HOWEVER, it may also be possible that some of this pessimism (or other negative state) may be simply be grounded in these 'brain-farts' we call PAWS. If it's the latter, and the sufferer doesn't know about the 'rewiring' and healing going on, I can imagine it would be most discouraging--and unnecessarily so!
I hope someone finds all that verbiage useful. Just paying it back to the community.
If you feel crappy--it may not be that your life is in fact crappy--it may just be a mood related to brain chemistry and recovery.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2016
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Posts: 33
Originally Posted by serious 
personally i don't believe in paws or any other made up diseases.
as professional alcoholic with a career of at least fifteen years, i have suffered greatly when relapsing, when recovering, when relapsing again and staying sober. i've been sober for a while now, but i still have miserable days.
i can attribute it to paws or gad or ptsd or any other name, or it could just be a bad day like everyone else is experiencing.
the on thing i've learned is that i tend to get more anxiety about the anxiety itself than the the real-world situation. somehow when push came to shove it was alright.
you are strong enough to be sober. you are definitely strong enough to bear a few crappy days.
don't get yourself filled with negative and unnecessary information. focus on progress, exercise and eat well (don't drink obviously). it's simple, but not easy.
every doctor will tell you about homeostasis, body's natural ability to heal itself and it's not just getting better from a cold, it's a mental recovery as well ... all you have to do is give it the right nourishment both mindful and in the foods you eat, two are closely connected as it should be no surprise.
as professional alcoholic with a career of at least fifteen years, i have suffered greatly when relapsing, when recovering, when relapsing again and staying sober. i've been sober for a while now, but i still have miserable days.
i can attribute it to paws or gad or ptsd or any other name, or it could just be a bad day like everyone else is experiencing.
the on thing i've learned is that i tend to get more anxiety about the anxiety itself than the the real-world situation. somehow when push came to shove it was alright.
you are strong enough to be sober. you are definitely strong enough to bear a few crappy days.
don't get yourself filled with negative and unnecessary information. focus on progress, exercise and eat well (don't drink obviously). it's simple, but not easy.
every doctor will tell you about homeostasis, body's natural ability to heal itself and it's not just getting better from a cold, it's a mental recovery as well ... all you have to do is give it the right nourishment both mindful and in the foods you eat, two are closely connected as it should be no surprise.
Yeah, sitting and reading about it only goes so far--being able to take action helps keep depression at bay. (I think I've been lucky--I've had bouts of 'pessimism,' but not depression, thus far. I think that's simply because I won't sit still--I have a bike and I ride it whenever I start feeling bad, if I can.)
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Thank you Kris, that was quite possibly the best summary of this collection of symptoms we call PAWS, and how our distorted thinking and other temporary "afflictions" (for lack of a better word) in early recovery are just that - temporary. Quite real, but temporary.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2016
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Posts: 33
Originally Posted by and
I've heard about PAWS before. I believe I do have those symptoms every time I stop drinking for a period of time. I wonder how much of my anxiety and brain fog that I always seem to have is something that would go away if I could stop for at least 2 years and give it time to work itself out.
I was surprised to eventually learn that my drinking was causing the very anxiety that I was trying to self-medicate away with alcohol. I distinctly recall learning to drink to deal with external sources of anxiety--worked great for that (not)--but over time, those sources went away, as they do, and the alcohol remained behind to supply the rest.It's a silly situation, when you think about it. (Not the impact, tho, that's not silly at all...)
Seriously though--one really nice thing that has arisen since I stopped drinking: I've noticed unusual subtle emotions and perspectives, particularly when I'm out riding my bike. Some of these are ones I haven't experienced in years, some are new, all are pleasant. So there certainly is a plus side worth exploring.
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Originally Posted by Turtle76
Hi Kris... I can't really answer any questions for you, but just say I can seriously relate. I feel like I could have written your original post, only you do such a better job descrihingvthe symptoms than I could ever do. My timeline is almost identical to yours.... I quit 1/28/16, started noticing weird memory problems about a month in, then some serious anxiety episodes started around mid April. The anxiety seems to last about 2 or 3 days, then goes away. Ive had 3 of these anxiety attacks now. Im taking L-theanine for the anxiety... its an herbal remedy a friend told me about, found in the vitamin section at my local pharmacy. It seems to heIp. Also, having irritability and loss of joy, which I only recently started experiencing. I also quit smoking in November 2015. Like you, I am just riding this out and having faith that it will pass. Good job on 3 months sober btw 😁
Now it's finally tapering back. Yes (for those of you who are looking for reassurance)--it does in fact get better. And sobriety is worth it, too.
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Originally Posted by FormerWineGirl
Thank you Kris, that was quite possibly the best summary of this collection of symptoms we call PAWS, and how our distorted thinking and other temporary "afflictions" (for lack of a better word) in early recovery are just that - temporary. Quite real, but temporary.
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A little follow up--I'll add these as appropriate for others to review if they're suffering too: on the advice of the doc, I knocked off the caffeine too, about 5 days ago. I started tapering back by going 50/50 then 75/25 and today it was all decaf (I normally drink a pot or two of coffee a day for the past 40 years.)
Doc thought it might help smooth out some of the symptoms, and while it may be a little early, yes, as of this afternoon I've enjoyed 3 hours without a problem. Clear thinking, appropriate emotions, no pessimism. I'm actually enjoying my sobriety for a change!
I hope it sticks--based on what I've read, that doesn't seem likely, but as long as the 'pessimism' stays away, I can deal with the rest.
If it comes back, I'll let you know. If it doesn't come back, I'll also let ya know! Courage, fellow sailors. Courage.
Doc thought it might help smooth out some of the symptoms, and while it may be a little early, yes, as of this afternoon I've enjoyed 3 hours without a problem. Clear thinking, appropriate emotions, no pessimism. I'm actually enjoying my sobriety for a change!
I hope it sticks--based on what I've read, that doesn't seem likely, but as long as the 'pessimism' stays away, I can deal with the rest.
If it comes back, I'll let you know. If it doesn't come back, I'll also let ya know! Courage, fellow sailors. Courage.
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Posts: 937
The unexpected pessimism you described - the gloom and doom which sort of descend out of nowhere - put a mental image of the dementors from Harry Potter in my mind.
"I felt strange - as if I'd never be cheerful again..."
I am sure you feel much better not drinking all that caffeine too! One to two pots of coffee is a lot My heart would be pounding out of my chest!
I'm at 53 days. Your post was very helpful - thank you.
"I felt strange - as if I'd never be cheerful again..."
I am sure you feel much better not drinking all that caffeine too! One to two pots of coffee is a lot
My heart would be pounding out of my chest! I'm at 53 days. Your post was very helpful - thank you.
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