What when the recovery method itself is the one that triggers problematic behavior?
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What when the recovery method itself is the one that triggers problematic behavior?
Hello.
I don't mean to debate recovery methods. But what is one supposed to do when the recovery method itself is one that triggers problematic behavior?
Long story short:
I have a troubled background with Christianity and religious people in general.
I've tried the 12 Step approach for my substance problems, but didn't manage to go through with the Higher Power aspect of it. I've also tried some secular approaches, but they didn't work either (precisely because they are secular).
I couldn't say whether I believe in God or some Higher Power or not -- it's all too troubling for me.
At the same time, I wouldn't say I am secular either.
I wish I could just fit myself into some religion or some philosophy and be done with my problems. But it just doesn't work that way.
Again: I don't mean to debate recovery methods. But what is one supposed to do when the recovery method itself is the one that triggers problematic behavior?
Thanks.
I don't mean to debate recovery methods. But what is one supposed to do when the recovery method itself is one that triggers problematic behavior?
Long story short:
I have a troubled background with Christianity and religious people in general.
I've tried the 12 Step approach for my substance problems, but didn't manage to go through with the Higher Power aspect of it. I've also tried some secular approaches, but they didn't work either (precisely because they are secular).
I couldn't say whether I believe in God or some Higher Power or not -- it's all too troubling for me.
At the same time, I wouldn't say I am secular either.
I wish I could just fit myself into some religion or some philosophy and be done with my problems. But it just doesn't work that way.
Again: I don't mean to debate recovery methods. But what is one supposed to do when the recovery method itself is the one that triggers problematic behavior?
Thanks.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
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look into other options... I got sober without the 12,
and regardless of which "recovery method" you choose, there is only one that works > wanting to be sober more than you want to drink <
all of the successes had this common denominator ...
I had too many telltale signs over the years - I knew I was an alcoholic. But I was not ready to quit - silly huh?
It took one life altering event for me to just say NO MORE.
And from that day on I never chose to drink again, 2 years and 4 months ago.
Regardless of how difficult quitting the addiction is, it's the easy part. What you do with yourself to address any underlying issues you may have is the difficult part. This is what many refer to as "recovery". Too often people try to fix themselves before they quit drinking. It's like trying to figure out why the fire started before putting it out. Quit drinking, clear your head, then work on yourself as a person. See a therapist if you need to.
I'm sure others will come along with good advice on how to do this with options available. I just wanted to point out the simplicity - or the logical approach to this.
and regardless of which "recovery method" you choose, there is only one that works > wanting to be sober more than you want to drink <
all of the successes had this common denominator ...
I had too many telltale signs over the years - I knew I was an alcoholic. But I was not ready to quit - silly huh?
It took one life altering event for me to just say NO MORE.
And from that day on I never chose to drink again, 2 years and 4 months ago.
Regardless of how difficult quitting the addiction is, it's the easy part. What you do with yourself to address any underlying issues you may have is the difficult part. This is what many refer to as "recovery". Too often people try to fix themselves before they quit drinking. It's like trying to figure out why the fire started before putting it out. Quit drinking, clear your head, then work on yourself as a person. See a therapist if you need to.
I'm sure others will come along with good advice on how to do this with options available. I just wanted to point out the simplicity - or the logical approach to this.
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Join Date: Apr 2016
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If you can't say whether you believe in a religion then you don't. Some people would say that their higher power is a higher level of consciousness within themselves and get around the religious aspect that way.
It's easy to say but I think you probably need to pick the lesser of two evils, drinking yourself to death or putting up with or adapting the religious or secular approaches.
It's easy to say but I think you probably need to pick the lesser of two evils, drinking yourself to death or putting up with or adapting the religious or secular approaches.
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Thank you for your speedy replies.
In a way, I do believe in God (or Higher Power) -- just not in a happy way. I don't believe God loves me or wants the best for me. But I do believe that God hates me, or is indifferent to me or puts up with me at most. This is what I was taught from early on.
I've looked into various religions, but things got even more muddled.
It seems to me that I've reached the point where no worldly benefit that could be obtained by quitting my problematic behaviors seems worth it.
That no matter what I do -- God is going to despise me and all my efforts will be for nothing.
In a way, I do believe in God (or Higher Power) -- just not in a happy way. I don't believe God loves me or wants the best for me. But I do believe that God hates me, or is indifferent to me or puts up with me at most. This is what I was taught from early on.
I've looked into various religions, but things got even more muddled.
It seems to me that I've reached the point where no worldly benefit that could be obtained by quitting my problematic behaviors seems worth it.
That no matter what I do -- God is going to despise me and all my efforts will be for nothing.
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Let us imagine for a moment that there is no god, no religion, no hocus-pocus of any kind. Who would you then blame for all of the pitfalls that befall you?
Who's fault would it be then? Who would 'despise' you then?
Trust that very many have experienced the same thoughts as you. And know that there were people much worse off than you with the same sort of screw the world and life attitude. Yet they somehow turned their lives around.
"The whole world is out to get me." "Nobody cares..." make the list of complaints by people with low self esteem.. it goes on.
How about this. Let's try an experiment. Get sober. Quit drinking - for good.
Or since this is just an experiment. Quit drinking for three years. And during that time try to ignore all of the outside influences you feel are out to 'get you'. Work on the positive aspects of living. Start being grateful for what you DO have - I know there are millions of people in the world much worse off than you are right now. And make a serious effort to start loving yourself.
Really make loving yourself a priority.
If after three years things are not much better, you can smack me upside the head. I know you won't because it will get better. I promise.
Who's fault would it be then? Who would 'despise' you then?
Trust that very many have experienced the same thoughts as you. And know that there were people much worse off than you with the same sort of screw the world and life attitude. Yet they somehow turned their lives around.
"The whole world is out to get me." "Nobody cares..." make the list of complaints by people with low self esteem.. it goes on.
How about this. Let's try an experiment. Get sober. Quit drinking - for good.
Or since this is just an experiment. Quit drinking for three years. And during that time try to ignore all of the outside influences you feel are out to 'get you'. Work on the positive aspects of living. Start being grateful for what you DO have - I know there are millions of people in the world much worse off than you are right now. And make a serious effort to start loving yourself.
Really make loving yourself a priority.
If after three years things are not much better, you can smack me upside the head. I know you won't because it will get better. I promise.
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 56
The alcoholic mind
Please don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like your alcoholic mind is talking when you say that because God must hate me, I will just continue to drink.
In my case, I used to make all sorts of rationalizations about why drinking a pint of vodka or more was OK. But now, I can say without a doubt that with 235 days sober there is nothing I would take in exchange for my sobriety. What I didn't realize at the height of my addiction was that the alcohol was changing my brain, in that my brain had been tricked over time into believing that what was up was down, and that black was white. You know, that inner voice that tells you that you don't have a problem, that voice that says that all of your love ones are the ones with the problem, not you. That voice that convinces you that one more drink is ok, because you aren't really already so drunk that you are acting like an ass.
The reality is that you are fooling no one. Your brain can't be trusted any more to tell you the truth. It is really messed up, so your best bet is to listen to, and believe those sober people around you, (who your sick brain has you convinced that they "just dont understand me, or my needs" blah, blah blah...) when they say that you are destroying your life, your relationships, and your liver. The bottom line is you can't trust your alcoholic mind to tell you the truth. It's lying to you, and it will keep doing so until you give it a chance to heal. When is the last time you noticed how blue the sky was, how pretty your spouse or children are?
It's not God's fault, it's not your treatment plan's fault. It's time to stop.
In my case, I used to make all sorts of rationalizations about why drinking a pint of vodka or more was OK. But now, I can say without a doubt that with 235 days sober there is nothing I would take in exchange for my sobriety. What I didn't realize at the height of my addiction was that the alcohol was changing my brain, in that my brain had been tricked over time into believing that what was up was down, and that black was white. You know, that inner voice that tells you that you don't have a problem, that voice that says that all of your love ones are the ones with the problem, not you. That voice that convinces you that one more drink is ok, because you aren't really already so drunk that you are acting like an ass.
The reality is that you are fooling no one. Your brain can't be trusted any more to tell you the truth. It is really messed up, so your best bet is to listen to, and believe those sober people around you, (who your sick brain has you convinced that they "just dont understand me, or my needs" blah, blah blah...) when they say that you are destroying your life, your relationships, and your liver. The bottom line is you can't trust your alcoholic mind to tell you the truth. It's lying to you, and it will keep doing so until you give it a chance to heal. When is the last time you noticed how blue the sky was, how pretty your spouse or children are?
It's not God's fault, it's not your treatment plan's fault. It's time to stop.
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Originally Posted by LBrain 
Let us imagine for a moment that there is no god, no religion, no hocus-pocus of any kind.
Who would you then blame for all of the pitfalls that befall you?
Who's fault would it be then? Who would 'despise' you then?
Who's fault would it be then? Who would 'despise' you then?
Many theists will simply say that God has free will and God can choose as he pleases, and if God wants to doom someone to hell for all eternity, then God has the right to do that. That's what I was taught. It's not like I believe God has some special hatred for me or some such. It's simply that I am not good enough for God, and that's it.
One of the reasons I am reluctant to go with a secular approach is because it feels to me like capitulation -- like finally giving in that I am doomed by God.
As long as I resist a secular approach, I have a sense that not all is lost.
Trust that very many have experienced the same thoughts as you.
And know that there were people much worse off than you with the same sort of screw the world and life attitude. Yet they somehow turned their lives around.
"The whole world is out to get me." "Nobody cares..."
If anything, I think I have some fatal flaw - whether due to design or nurture, I don't know. I can't figure it out. This not being able to figure out what my flaw is (and how to fix it) is what frustrates me.
How about this. Let's try an experiment. Get sober. Quit drinking - for good.
Or since this is just an experiment. Quit drinking for three years.
Or since this is just an experiment. Quit drinking for three years.
I wish I had just one vice. But no - I quit one, and, in time, notice, that one or more others have popped up.
And during that time try to ignore all of the outside influences you feel are out to 'get you'.
Work on the positive aspects of living. Start being grateful for what you DO have - I know there are millions of people in the world much worse off than you are right now.
For some things, I can express gratitude to the people who have provided them for me. And I do that. But to whom do I thank that there was no earthquake or vulcanic eruption etc. where I live?
And make a serious effort to start loving yourself.
Really make loving yourself a priority.
Really make loving yourself a priority.
If after three years things are not much better, you can smack me upside the head. I know you won't because it will get better. I promise.
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Thank you for your reply.
I'm not saying that, though.
I'm also quite sure that I'm not making such rationalizations. See below.
My inner voice isn't saying such things, though.
I am quite sure that I am the one who has the problem, that others are okay, and that I am not okay, and that one more problematic behavior is not okay.
It's just that I am exhausted from all this. I feel like someone who has run a marathon, barely managed it, and is then told "Now run it one more time".
Sure.
Unfortunately, it is this same untrustworthy brain that I need to use in order to decide whom to ask for help and directions. And people say all kinds of things ...
Originally Posted by MrSmith
Please don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds like your alcoholic mind is talking when you say that because God must hate me, I will just continue to drink.
In my case, I used to make all sorts of rationalizations about why drinking a pint of vodka or more was OK.
You know, that inner voice that tells you that you don't have a problem, that voice that says that all of your love ones are the ones with the problem, not you. That voice that convinces you that one more drink is ok, because you aren't really already so drunk that you are acting like an ass.
I am quite sure that I am the one who has the problem, that others are okay, and that I am not okay, and that one more problematic behavior is not okay.
It's just that I am exhausted from all this. I feel like someone who has run a marathon, barely managed it, and is then told "Now run it one more time".
The bottom line is you can't trust your alcoholic mind to tell you the truth.
Unfortunately, it is this same untrustworthy brain that I need to use in order to decide whom to ask for help and directions. And people say all kinds of things ...
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Originally Posted by blossom123
Unfortunately, it is this same untrustworthy brain that I need to use in order to decide whom to ask for help and directions. And people say all kinds of things ...
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Firstly, welcome, but thats not been my experience here at SR at all Helgav.
Lets not have this thread descend into' my recovery method is better than yours' or 'that recovery method sucks'.
Its not the way we do things here.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Blossom...If you're looking for a secular approach blossom there are all manner of meeting based secular methods - SMART, LifeRing, SOS for starters.
Here's some links to some of the main players, including but not limited to AA:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html
Rational Recovery is also secular and is book based.
I recommend you visit the Secular Connections forum if you think you may benefit from a non 12 step approach.
Dee
Moderator
SR
Lets not have this thread descend into' my recovery method is better than yours' or 'that recovery method sucks'.
Its not the way we do things here.
__________________________________________________ ____________
Blossom...If you're looking for a secular approach blossom there are all manner of meeting based secular methods - SMART, LifeRing, SOS for starters.
Here's some links to some of the main players, including but not limited to AA:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html
Rational Recovery is also secular and is book based.
I recommend you visit the Secular Connections forum if you think you may benefit from a non 12 step approach.
Dee
Moderator
SR
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Join Date: Apr 2012
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Posts: 6,613
Well Blossom, it looks awfully complicated. I think I came into the 12 step approach with not too dissimilar feelings. I really had no "feeling" for God, and I thought that if He does exist, well He hasn't done me any favours.
Then I sat in those meetings and picked up on the idea that some sort of Higher Power was essential for this recovery method to work, and I really wanted it to work. I was at least willing to believe that the same power that worked for these other folks, might possibly work for me, but how to develop that possibility into something more?
I had a look at my life and the many close scrapes I had been in. Crazy driving, accidents, fights, so many I survived without a scratch, except the fights, I didn't do so well there. I crashed my motorcycle one night, went over the handlebars and straight between two trees, landing on my face and almost breaking my neck. The bike went over me and landed further into the park. I got up, after a while, went to a party, and got into a fight. Next day I am in hospital with a suspected broken neck. Things like this happened a lot, and my surviving them seemed a little more than luck. If I had that much luck I would win the lottery every time I brought a ticket. Maybe someone was looking after me.
Then I asked about prayer. I didn't know how to go about it, but everyone seemed to think it was important. So I tried in the most child like way. I didn't notice it at the time, but something changed in me. The fear of the steps left me and my attitude was changed. If you have taken the steps, you will see exactly how they were working for me.
Next thing I knew I was at my sponsor's house for a saturday working through step four with him. Next day I took step five with him, then went away to the mountains to conduct the suggested review of progress. That was the point at which my spiritual experience began, with the realisation that the big book on page 75 was describing exactly how I felt. That was when I first felt the presence of my Higher Power, I now had a faith based on my own experience, and my life had changed forever.
It all happened for me as the result of the steps, not a prerequisite. In religious terms, the word Ngostic fits me quite well. The Ngostics were a part fo the Christian religion who believed everyone could have their own personal experience with their creator, they didn't have to go through the bishops. They believed in knowledge through experience, and that has been my path. I started the steps with no prior knowledge of matters of faith, and through actual experience I have developed a faith that really works.
The trouble is, my life is based at least in part in trying to figure out what He wants me to do, as opposed to suggesting what He might do for me. But It seems to work ok. When I try and do what I thinke He would have me do, I seem to get everything I need.
Then I sat in those meetings and picked up on the idea that some sort of Higher Power was essential for this recovery method to work, and I really wanted it to work. I was at least willing to believe that the same power that worked for these other folks, might possibly work for me, but how to develop that possibility into something more?
I had a look at my life and the many close scrapes I had been in. Crazy driving, accidents, fights, so many I survived without a scratch, except the fights, I didn't do so well there. I crashed my motorcycle one night, went over the handlebars and straight between two trees, landing on my face and almost breaking my neck. The bike went over me and landed further into the park. I got up, after a while, went to a party, and got into a fight. Next day I am in hospital with a suspected broken neck. Things like this happened a lot, and my surviving them seemed a little more than luck. If I had that much luck I would win the lottery every time I brought a ticket. Maybe someone was looking after me.
Then I asked about prayer. I didn't know how to go about it, but everyone seemed to think it was important. So I tried in the most child like way. I didn't notice it at the time, but something changed in me. The fear of the steps left me and my attitude was changed. If you have taken the steps, you will see exactly how they were working for me.
Next thing I knew I was at my sponsor's house for a saturday working through step four with him. Next day I took step five with him, then went away to the mountains to conduct the suggested review of progress. That was the point at which my spiritual experience began, with the realisation that the big book on page 75 was describing exactly how I felt. That was when I first felt the presence of my Higher Power, I now had a faith based on my own experience, and my life had changed forever.
It all happened for me as the result of the steps, not a prerequisite. In religious terms, the word Ngostic fits me quite well. The Ngostics were a part fo the Christian religion who believed everyone could have their own personal experience with their creator, they didn't have to go through the bishops. They believed in knowledge through experience, and that has been my path. I started the steps with no prior knowledge of matters of faith, and through actual experience I have developed a faith that really works.
The trouble is, my life is based at least in part in trying to figure out what He wants me to do, as opposed to suggesting what He might do for me. But It seems to work ok. When I try and do what I thinke He would have me do, I seem to get everything I need.
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Join Date: Sep 2015
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Ok
Ok, so I can tell you what I did. Like you, I didn't like the idea of AA, but that's not to say that it might not help others, it's just not for me.
I went to an addiction specialist, who in addition to providing me some therapy, no group sessions, prescribed me an anti-craving medicine that is given as an injection once a month. It's called Vivitrol. It primarily does two things for me, first of all, it gets rid of or severely limits my cravings for alcohol, and secondly because it binds the receptors in my brain that receive pleasure from drinking the alcohol, if I were to take a drink, it wouldn't give me the same type of rush. Now I have never tried to test this by drinking, it does help me to know that even if i did drink it is not going to be the same. Another big thing to note, I have had a major reduction in my cravings for booze. This reduction in the cravings has given me the space I needed to start healing, and to start living a new normal. The shot lasts 30 days, and it has been a life saver.
Some people in recovery may not think that this is enough "work", but I have 235 days sober, so something is working. No meetings, no steps, no need for you to deal with your God issues. It just works. I do think that therapy is helpful though.
The shots are expensive, especially if you don't have insurance. My psychiatrist has prescribed me a course of 12 shots over a year. I am a new person. I have hope again, my family doesn't hate me, and all of my lab tests came back normal. I lost 50 lbs, and I no longer have to take high blood pressure medicine, high cholesterol meds, nor antidepressants. I even stopped having sleep apnea. There is hope....Good luck to you. I thank God everyday for this new lease on life.
I went to an addiction specialist, who in addition to providing me some therapy, no group sessions, prescribed me an anti-craving medicine that is given as an injection once a month. It's called Vivitrol. It primarily does two things for me, first of all, it gets rid of or severely limits my cravings for alcohol, and secondly because it binds the receptors in my brain that receive pleasure from drinking the alcohol, if I were to take a drink, it wouldn't give me the same type of rush. Now I have never tried to test this by drinking, it does help me to know that even if i did drink it is not going to be the same. Another big thing to note, I have had a major reduction in my cravings for booze. This reduction in the cravings has given me the space I needed to start healing, and to start living a new normal. The shot lasts 30 days, and it has been a life saver.
Some people in recovery may not think that this is enough "work", but I have 235 days sober, so something is working. No meetings, no steps, no need for you to deal with your God issues. It just works. I do think that therapy is helpful though.
The shots are expensive, especially if you don't have insurance. My psychiatrist has prescribed me a course of 12 shots over a year. I am a new person. I have hope again, my family doesn't hate me, and all of my lab tests came back normal. I lost 50 lbs, and I no longer have to take high blood pressure medicine, high cholesterol meds, nor antidepressants. I even stopped having sleep apnea. There is hope....Good luck to you. I thank God everyday for this new lease on life.
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how bout changing your perception of God?
or you could use mine. He loves you, wants the best for you, will always be there, and will give you the strength and courage to work the steps and have a great,alcohol free life.
just as He has done for me.
or you could use mine. He loves you, wants the best for you, will always be there, and will give you the strength and courage to work the steps and have a great,alcohol free life.
just as He has done for me.
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Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 125
I use to question God's intentions toward me then I came to realize it was because of the things that were planted in me as a child. I went to church regularly growing up and most of what I remember was about sin and punishment so I came to believe in a God that sat on high watching and waiting for people to do something wrong so they could be punished. That didn't help me to believe that God loved me because I did things that were "wrong." Even the little things I did had me waiting for God to punish me.
You may want to analyze your childhood and things you learned back then to see how that influences your thoughts of a Higher Power today. Then see how accurate those thoughts are. Just a thought! I am still redefining my thoughts of my God and it's starting to feel better. Best wishes!
You may want to analyze your childhood and things you learned back then to see how that influences your thoughts of a Higher Power today. Then see how accurate those thoughts are. Just a thought! I am still redefining my thoughts of my God and it's starting to feel better. Best wishes!
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Originally Posted by tomsteve
how bout changing your perception of God?
There are thousands of ideas about "God" out there. Which one is the right one?
or you could use mine. He loves you, wants the best for you, will always be there, and will give you the strength and courage to work the steps and have a great,alcohol free life.
just as He has done for me.
just as He has done for me.
Originally Posted by stillpooh19
You may want to analyze your childhood and things you learned back then to see how that influences your thoughts of a Higher Power today.
Then see how accurate those thoughts are. Just a thought! I am still redefining my thoughts of my God and it's starting to feel better. Best wishes!
I've been spending years trying to "redefine my thoughts about God," but so far, it doesn't seem to help, things just get more and more convulted.
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The God stuff is interesting and all that, but if he/she/it exists at all it is probably dealing with larger issues than if I drink myself to death.
So here is what worked for me: I stopped putting alcohol in that hole in my face. And I kept doing that no matter how I felt about it. See I control my arms. Me. I decide what I do with them.
You can stop drinking if you decide to do so. Millions of people have and we are no more special than you. Quit drinking before it gets worse because if you are one of us it WILL get worse if you keep at it.
So here is what worked for me: I stopped putting alcohol in that hole in my face. And I kept doing that no matter how I felt about it. See I control my arms. Me. I decide what I do with them.
You can stop drinking if you decide to do so. Millions of people have and we are no more special than you. Quit drinking before it gets worse because if you are one of us it WILL get worse if you keep at it.
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I hope you'll check out those secular alternatives I talked about before Blossom.
I'm a Christian but I was an atheist when I got sober.
I never did AA either but the HP thing never bothered me much.
Alcohol had kicked my butt so often, I had no trouble with the concept that I wasn't the highest power in the world
For me the help and guidance of others, and the examples they set, was my 'Higher Power' - and the community here at SR never let me down
D
I'm a Christian but I was an atheist when I got sober.
I never did AA either but the HP thing never bothered me much.
Alcohol had kicked my butt so often, I had no trouble with the concept that I wasn't the highest power in the world
For me the help and guidance of others, and the examples they set, was my 'Higher Power' - and the community here at SR never let me down
D
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Join Date: Mar 2016
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Blossom - try this...ask your Higher Power to show himself to you, then let go and wait! Just know this, God does show up whether you believe or not and that's a good thing!
Just stay sober and find a program that works for you and allow life to guide you into a knowledge of a God of your understanding.
Just stay sober and find a program that works for you and allow life to guide you into a knowledge of a God of your understanding.
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Originally Posted by ru12
You can stop drinking if you decide to do so. Millions of people have and we are no more special than you. Quit drinking before it gets worse because if you are one of us it WILL get worse if you keep at it.
I can quit one problem behavior. But others will come in. I've counted I have around twenty. Keeping track of them or trying to stop all at once is overwhelming. Quitting one by one has turned out to be useless, because if I cut down one, others become more prominent, or new ones emerge. Some of them aren't even problematic per se (like exercising), except that I tend to overdo them. It's the state of mind I'm in when I turn to them. It seems this is what I need to fix first.
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Originally Posted by Dee74
I hope you'll check out those secular alternatives I talked about before Blossom.
I'm a Christian but I was an atheist when I got sober.
I never did AA either but the HP thing never bothered me much.
Alcohol had kicked my butt so often, I had no trouble with the concept that I wasn't the highest power in the world
For me the help and guidance of others, and the examples they set, was my 'Higher Power' - and the community here at SR never let me down
I'm a Christian but I was an atheist when I got sober.
I never did AA either but the HP thing never bothered me much.
Alcohol had kicked my butt so often, I had no trouble with the concept that I wasn't the highest power in the world
For me the help and guidance of others, and the examples they set, was my 'Higher Power' - and the community here at SR never let me down
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