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Indulge me in a debate

Old 04-25-2016, 12:25 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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For the record, I agree with most everything the OP said about indulgence, selfishness, sin.

I don't know why the post had to be set up as a debate though. Seeking an argument for no other reason than to see how many people disagree or agree? What kind of thing is that to do?

If you want to make a point or express an opinion, then do it. Don't think you have to make up a debate just to get people talking. People talk around here nonstop
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:29 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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Sorry if I made it a debate I just copied and pasted from thread in another forum..laziness I suppose
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:39 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Year, I see the issue as this: even if your intent is not to debate recovery methods, XX vs YY or whatever, every debate somehow devolves to that. Folks will get offended and react emotionally instead of rationally, and start to attack. They will do this because they see countering viewpoints as an assault on their own recovery method, and that they must defend it because they perceive that their sobriety depends on it. Personal attacks inevitably follow and then we all feel bad and look worse. I can see the ad hominems have started already, and it's a shame that debates over ideas end up that way. It seems to be a weakness in our culture that is much too common.

If you wish to discuss ideas like this (not debate them), other forums would be more suitable. The secular connections forum is one possibility as is the alcoholism forum. Maybe give them a try.

And congratulations to you on your sobriety.
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:51 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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I did! and got not a lot back..but I like what you say
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Old 04-25-2016, 01:27 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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we are all entitled to our own opinions.
if i dont like your opinion thats my problem.
if you dont like my opinion, thats your problem.

i like pancakes with bacon over sausage.
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Old 04-25-2016, 01:35 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by yearlander View Post
Thank you so much dwtbt..I thought I was going mad for a minute there lol. I remember now why Jack said "stay away from "recovery" groups" But it's sooo god to hear from someone who got better the same way..without all this "angst"
I was only trying to help.
But seems I am an anti-christ lol
Yearlander I think you've kind of missed the point. I think you'll find that many who have been in recovery for a while will agree with some of your post, maybe all of it. I believe you got the reaction you got because this is a newcomers forum. The idea here is to support people in very early abstinence by sharing YOUR experience, what happened and how you managed the 4 years. And sharing it in a way that is non biased, non judgmental and diplomatic.

BTW, part of recovery for me is accepting that my views and my experience are just that, mine. I don't need, or expect, that everyone will just fall in line with me. While I believe that addicts share many common traits and experiences (hence the reason we are so able to understand and support one another), we are also different. What if every long time poster here had this response to each newcomer :"Look loser, you're a selfish jerk. You are choosing this so just grow the heck up and quit drinking". I'm not sure SR would be the place it is.

I do not argue your views in any way, they are yours and got you were you are today. But I don't need to parrot you if I find your approach inappropriate. Pretty straight forward.
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Old 04-25-2016, 02:02 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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poop demon wins!!! That was freakin hilarious and really sounds like something I would say.....well done!!
I agree....it doesn't matter how you get sober as long as you get sober! Some people turn to God, some turn to studying the "disease".... I've been sober for extended periods of time, but always end up thinking i'm okay to have a drink...bull...
I don't claim it's a disease...but I call it a drinking problem.... as far as the genes and hereditary aspects go....it's definitely in my family....but ultimately yes we're all selfish for doing it and feel terrible for it at this point!!
Whatever it takes to bring sober peace...whether it be poop demons....or studying alcoholism as the "disease" it's claimed to be...and relating that to your life.
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Old 04-25-2016, 03:27 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Congrats on the four years!

That is wonderful. I have yet to make 4 years. You are to be commended!

As for a debate, seems like you don't really want one. Your original post, stuffed full of absolutes and name calling, is crafted to be confrontational and to make people angry.

So it sounds like to me you want a fight not a debate. Sorry, not interested.

Hope you find whatever it was that you were looking for when you posted this.
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Old 04-25-2016, 03:27 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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I get what you are saying but I doubt it's very constructive to post this in a forum for newcomers to recovery who are already beating themselves up for being where they are. I don't disagree that our drinking/drugging is selfish but that is also the nature of addiction. And no one will ever convince me that addiction does not have deep roots in life events other than selfishness. The way we cope with these life events may or may not be "selfish," but that is only part of the equation.

I was emotionally abused by my father from an early age. I also experienced two instances of sexual abuse. I managed to put those events behind me only to end up as a mother of a severely autistic child and a cheating husband. I am now divorced and raising my child alone and for a very long time, I drank to escape the stress of my life. If that's selfish, so be it. I agree. But to blame it on "sin" and "selfishness" is oversimplifying.

There comes a point where drinking to escape or numb or feel "buzzed" crosses the line into physical dependence. That's where the "choice" is lost. Gone. It takes a great deal of steely determination to overcome something your body and your brain are literally screaming for every minute of the day. I think many of us have been there. I literally drank to survive. It was a dark, terrible place that I would never have chosen for myself and desperately wanted out of. It wasn't me saying, "Hey, I want this drink and I'm going to do it for ME." It was, "I am sick and dependent and desperate and I don't know what else to do." I don't regard that as selfishness.

Like I said, I get what you are saying but I think you are oversimplifying. Every person is different and there are many ways of studying addiction. I agree that on some level, our addictions are selfish but I also believe that there are other dynamics at work. Each of us has to look at our unique situations and decide what methods of recovery (and what mindsets) work for us, what don't, and then take what works for us and leave the rest.
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Old 04-25-2016, 04:14 PM
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When I came here, I didn't need to be told I was 'shite', I already thought that - that was one of the reasons I drank.

That's why I'm glad there's a multiplicity of approaches here at SR - there's always something that will work for you..or you..or you...or you, right at the back there...

let's all huddle

D
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Old 04-25-2016, 04:58 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Dee ... the voice of reason. Always. Entering the huddle.
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Old 04-25-2016, 08:56 PM
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It sounds like you still carry some baggage and self loathing for your past actions and are projecting it rather aggressively on the rest of the group.

I do not believe in sin, it is a Christian concept and I have doubts about alcoholism being a disease. My personal leanings tend to be that it is a self inflicted mental disorder/compulsion. But those are my views, a great thing about SR is that there is a wide variety of methods and perspectives.

One thing I believe in is that the newcomers are not crap. They are just like a lot of us were some years ago, caught in a web of alcoholic despair.
If posting here trying to extend a helping hand to a newbie makes me a "recoveryist" then so be it. I am in great company
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Old 04-25-2016, 09:29 PM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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I let "it" be a long time ago. I came to accept the "my" way is the right way of sobriety never seemed to end well. I will admit, I was guilty for a period of time but realised "my" way is the only way, not true. Now, I say whatever works, kudos and my hat goes off to you.
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Old 04-25-2016, 10:10 PM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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If you are against recovery groups or at least agree with a written sentiment to stay away from the recovery movement, then why are you here in a recovery forum, 4 years sober reminding us we are all here because we are shite?
What do you even have to gain from this thread?
Do you really feel so base that you must build yourself up by reminding those who are downtrodden that they are among the muck for their choices?
I do not even understand this thread or why anyone is indulging it. I'm sure most of us who've dragged our sorry behinds here know very well the effects our drinking has had and that it all boils down to our own choice.

Seems to me you need to take log out of your own eye before pointing out everyone else's splinters.

Or at least maybe a brush up on kindness and basic human decency my do your soul and those you are acquainted with some good.

I'm sorry if you're hurting in some way, and if there's anything we can do to help let us know.
It's what we're here for. If you're here just to provoke a reaction then I'm afraid you need some help of a different kind.
Just glad to hear you're sober. But seriously... *face palm* to your post. How disheartening.

You're not the antichrist but I have serious doubts as to your happiness in sobriety. It's these types of posts that give me the impression that a relapse might be on your horizon.
Cause you know... part of being selfish is posting your opinion anonymously on a recovery forum with little to no care for how the newcomers or those struggling may feel seems pretty damn selfish and self-serving to me.

I wish you a step 4 and hope you never relapse. I also hope in recovery I never find an attitude like yours. I'd rather have the poo poo demon.

Sorry! This one really rubbed me the wrong way! I've been hating myself for 2 years. I know how selfish I've been and right now I'm being selfish by indulging myself in responding to this thread. So. Pffffffft :P
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Old 04-25-2016, 10:29 PM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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I was living in hell. Explain to me how that was selfish?

Perhaps you were a hard partier, and not a "real" alcoholic?

You see I don't really mean that, but it illustrates my point. You only know your OWN motivations for things, and projecting them onto everyone else is, well, a bit arrogant and presumptuous no?
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:46 AM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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You lost me at sin.
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:58 AM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by yearlander View Post
I also don't see "my" way as the only right way..what is so HORRIFYING on seeing this as YOUR responsibility and NOT a disease?
I'm lost on this concept. Why does classifying chemical dependency as a disease mean it is not my responsibility?
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:37 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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I think I can take or leave the word disease. Diseases are not in my control, but with the help of a doctor can sometimes be cured or helped. So in my story, the use of a doctor played very heavily. So I will say that FOR ME, there was a disease that required medical attention.
If others were not in my spot, good for them - great! And if they were able to stop without intervention - also awesome!
My head tells me that when it comes to organized religion ( a few religions omitted) that none of them consider alcohol a sin. So I will not play the sinner card/debate. My own religion encourages wine, and in fact encourages one day of the year of drinking intoxicating beverages with abandon.
Selfishness - yes I am sure this entered in. I would have stopped sooner if I had chosen health first and piece of mind. But instead of selfish I would choose the word deluded - the definition of insanity - trying the same thing again and again hoping for different results. There was a time, a long time ago, when drinking wine for pleasure was likely a selfish act. Then it turned ugly and insidious. At the time it felt like if I stopped, it would be like you asking me to quit breathing oxygen. Selfish or self preservation?
While it's not a debate, I suppose you've caused me to apply some thought to old behaviours. I've covered a lot of this in my step work, but am always happy to revisit and rethink. Keeps me far from slip ups and trip ups.
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:59 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by LosingmyMisery View Post
I let "it" be a long time ago. I came to accept the "my" way is the right way of sobriety never seemed to end well. I will admit, I was guilty for a period of time but realised "my" way is the only way, not true. Now, I say whatever works, kudos and my hat goes off to you.
Amen! One thing that has taken me a long time to realize is that even with some sober successes I really don't know it all! Go figure...! I keep my mind open to other people's advice and experience, I'll take any weapon I can into my arsenal against this disease. YES I call it a disease, like 95% of medical professionals do. Do they just term it this for lip service? I don't really think so. It's a chronic condition that progresses and never goes away. Like other diseases with treatment it can be put into remission but there's always a chance that it can return. My 2 cents and millions of doctor's as well!
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Old 04-26-2016, 11:17 AM
  # 60 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by desertsong View Post
I get what you are saying but I doubt it's very constructive to post this in a forum for newcomers to recovery who are already beating themselves up for being where they are. I don't disagree that our drinking/drugging is selfish but that is also the nature of addiction. And no one will ever convince me that addiction does not have deep roots in life events other than selfishness. The way we cope with these life events may or may not be "selfish," but that is only part of the equation. I was emotionally abused by my father from an early age. I also experienced two instances of sexual abuse. I managed to put those events behind me only to end up as a mother of a severely autistic child and a cheating husband. I am now divorced and raising my child alone and for a very long time, I drank to escape the stress of my life. If that's selfish, so be it. I agree. But to blame it on "sin" and "selfishness" is oversimplifying. There comes a point where drinking to escape or numb or feel "buzzed" crosses the line into physical dependence. That's where the "choice" is lost. Gone. It takes a great deal of steely determination to overcome something your body and your brain are literally screaming for every minute of the day. I think many of us have been there. I literally drank to survive. It was a dark, terrible place that I would never have chosen for myself and desperately wanted out of. It wasn't me saying, "Hey, I want this drink and I'm going to do it for ME." It was, "I am sick and dependent and desperate and I don't know what else to do." I don't regard that as selfishness. Like I said, I get what you are saying but I think you are oversimplifying. Every person is different and there are many ways of studying addiction. I agree that on some level, our addictions are selfish but I also believe that there are other dynamics at work. Each of us has to look at our unique situations and decide what methods of recovery (and what mindsets) work for us, what don't, and then take what works for us and leave the rest.
I relate 100%. Thank you so much for this. I was completely addicted to alcohol psychologically and physically. At the end of my drinking, I did not even want to drink since it was making me miserable, hopeless, desperate and depressed. But I could not stop. I had to drink. Its like I was compelled to drink and had no other choice. It wasnt at all enjoyable and in fact I started to pray hoping I would just not wake up from the next blackout. I hope to forever how that felt for the rest of my life.
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