fini

SiS,
so it's great you're now doing so much better, now that you're not doing the thing that wasn't working well for you.

and in answer to your "why can't we...or it seems that every time someone says XX didn't work for them...(paraphrased)" it then serves as a great illustration of the question(s) you're asking and the point most responders are making: no use to anyone spending energy on talking about what "didn't work". put the energy into telling us what is working so much better; what you're doing that's so helpful, what you're discovering about yourself and what's of use to you.

lilgolden73

This is why I rarely post or respond, too many rules about what you can say, so it's best for me to just read...

Thumpalumpacus

Given the sensitive nature of the subject matter, I'd say that the moderation has a very good mix of light touch and an awareness of the delicacy the topic of recovery requires.

Meraviglioso

I've been thinking about this all day, it's been bothering me, I think because I was thinking about it before I read it/you posted it. (I wonder now if you can even see this post as I certainly fall into the category above.... but I guess some others can)

I have definitely questioned my usage of SR recently and wondered if I even have the right to respond to anyone at all. I've been trying to stick to basic "way to go!" "Congrats on 1 week/month/year" because I just feel like a fool offering anything else to anyone when I can't manage to get my own life under control.

That said, I sometimes do feel like I have something to offer and I want to give back in an earnest way. Maybe something simple like "a cup of juice helps me a lot with cravings" which, even if I have no long term sobriety to speak of is still the truth and possibly a tip worth sharing, no? Or maybe I have something more profound to offer in the way of emotional support or relating to someone. Should I not post because I am still struggling?

I have seen numerous posts from people who are doctors, addiction counsellors, therapist and psychologists who are suffering from addiction. Should they quit their jobs? Are they incapable of helping others just because they struggle themselves- either right in this moment or have in the past?

I guess everyone should filter as they see fit and use the ignore button as much as they need but I'd like to shout out to all the others struggling out there and say that your voice is important too. Just because you feel worthless doesn't mean you are. You might just have the right line of words that saves my day, please do share.

stevieg46

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Hi SIS .

Whilst drinking I blamed everything and everyone for making me lift a drink ''it was all their fault '' its to wet /hot/windy/cold/ if they hadn't done this/that ?then I wouldn't have blah blah .

An excuse is an attempt of finding a reason when there ''is none'' fact
maybe I am old fashioned but all this talk about reacting to ''stressors , triggers , addictive voice '' is the blame game , you poured the drink down your throat because you wanted to or were looking for oblivion through self pity .

I if I wanted to find a ''reason '' for lifting a drink ?then I have had more than my fair share , I was two years sober when I found out my late father had been sexually abusing my daughter since she was 7 years old and my younger brother had raped her when she was 13 years old , my mother died , I was sectioned under the mental health act in a mental institution 3 times in a ''locked ward '' they found out it was BI POLAR, I never lifted a drink because there was no reason to , if I wanted to use that as an excuse I would have done so , but there was no excuse that would have changed or altered the situation or circumstances , sure I wanted to switch my head off and shut it out of my mind , but I hung on and played for time and I finally accepted it ..

You may not like this but '' grow up '' and get on with it put it down to experience and stop blaming and living in the past , concentrate on what is working for you today , live with the solution and not the problem .


I went to meetings and sat and listened to people who were really upset about losing their cat or their dog had died and lifted a drink because they could not cope with it (WTF) I mentioned to them what had happened with me and they were not interested why ? they were to wrapped up in self, immaturity , and self pity , its a tough old world and sometimes ''we need to toughen up and grow a pair '', take care .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006

Fabat50

Stevie

I am so so sorry for the horrors you have lived through with your daughter and the loss of your mother. And I take my hat off to you for your sobriety and strength.

But how does telling the OP to "grow up" relate to her original post or help in any way? I think SIS was asking a reasonable question but your reply is unreasonably harsh and off topic in my mind.

Anna

Just a Reminder and a caution - this is the Mandate for the Forum:

The Newcomers Forum is a safe and welcoming place for newcomers. Respect is essential.

MIRecovery

Newcomers are the life blood of recovery. They bring insights to recovery that I never thought of because everything is so fresh. I had someone new to sobriety PM me with the question, "What does it take to stay sober."

That without a doubt is one of the deepest, most complicated, and insightful questions I have ever heard in the recovery community. Some of my buddies who have 30 years of sobriety and I talked about this for hours.

Where I have a problem are newcomers condemning things they have an extremely limited understanding of. That is not to say things can not be questioned as a matter of fact they should be questioned just not condemned or dismissed.

Recovery is very, very, very, complicated. The longer I am sober the more facets I find and the more I realize I do not know. One of the cornerstones of any good recovery is to remain teachable and humble.

A bit of advice I can impart is the longer someone has been sober the more I pay attention to them. Of course there are people with long term sobriety that are basically unhappy people who I don't want what they have but they are the exception and not the rule.

If you will notice Dee's Avatar is Felix the Cat. Part of Felix's theme song is, "Whenever he gets in a fix he reaches into his bag of tricks." Although I have never directly asked I doubt Dee chose Felix by accident. I believe there are all sorts of tricks that can be learned in AA, RR, Smart and a millions other ways. That is why I have a very open mind when it comes to recovery because I want as many things in my bag of tricks as I can.

To all new comers do not be afraid to post. Ask a zillion questions and give all manners of recovery a decent review looking at them with an open mind

Dee74

Yep. Felix never gives up and he always has his handy bag of tricks - that, and he was created by an Australian.

Jsbodhi

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IvanMike

My 2 cents...

I'm an atheist, A no fooling Dennet/Hitchens/Harris/Dawkins atheist. I wanted no part of AA or NA because I didn't want any of their higher power junk. I was full of theory and short on experience. Specifically, I was short of experience in terms of actual practical application of the 12-step program over a period of time. (This includes remaining clean/sober and following all of their "suggestions").

One of the things I have leaned in recovery is "if it works for someone else, don't bash it". So, as an atheist, I don't bash other member's higher powers. So, I try to bring that same mindset here. I have my doubts about some alternative methods of recovery, but I try to keep an open mind if it's working for someone, especially long term. - However, (especially live and in person), I will question what someone's doing if it's not working for them. - Read as "the person who has their own personal program for recovery their way but isn't staying clean". Big difference.

So yes, I tend to promote Narcotics Anonymous and mention that practical application of the twelve steps is possible (and very beneficial) for a dyed in the wool atheist. It's worked very well and I have experience. This experience was gained at the price of me ceasing to resist the recovery method i was supposedly "involved" in. - I've watched a lot of people come and go, picking and choosing what they will and will not do, despite arriving in the condition that we are all familiar with. Every once in a while one of them will tell me that NA doesn't work. It's not unusual for me to ask them "how would you know? I watched you not do it".

As always, YMMV.

Nowsthetime

Good insightful dialogue...

I think SR is a place that in general feels like "if you don't have anything positive to say don't say anything at all"...

I agree with OP, everyone needs to post, don't let your AV talk to you and tell you you can't help because "you don't/ can't do it yourself". That's garbage.

fantail

I just wanted to add that I do feel like there's a lot of diversity represented here and I really appreciate it. I've heard so many stories and insights from people of all ages, all backgrounds, and all life situations. It's true that there are topics that can be kind of touchy and it's not always the place to have a full on conversation about the real deeper things about sobriety. There are things that I journal about but would never start a discussion about here. But I have accepted that that's a reasonable price to pay for keeping the peace amongst such a large crowd. I mean let's face it, there are some of us that if we went to the same meeting/group therapy/etc in person, we'd be leaving like "Never going there again, did you hear what that one was on about?!?!" But online, I get to slow down and listen to people that I kind of disagree with (and vice versa I hope?). Price of admission, Extended Family Thanksgiving Rules (avoid politics, religion, and anything that would shock the proverbial Aunt Maggie).

FLCamper

Hello, SIS,
AA has a huge presence and there's a reason: it's been around for ages, it's a great program and has helped millions sober up and stay that way. That's why you hear so much about it.

I've posted that AA didn't suit me and I didn't get any push back for that statement. But that's not really bashing anything, just giving my opinion.

It is important to consider pros and cons of any thing in order to make an informed decision. Personally, I like to hear both sides and make my own decision. A newcomer may not feel comfortable with AA but not know there are other successful alternatives. Much like yours - I followed your daily updates with a great deal of interest and I'm delighted you are doing so well!

I've found that most opinions around here are made in a respectful way. And I'll certainly monitor mine. I don't need a black cat with a bag of tricks coming after me!

chrcarlson

The pro AA slant is due to how many it's helps. I've seen negative things posted about AA on here. Some of it has validity. I wouldn't encourage someone not to go. It's too damn hard to walk through the door the first time. I wouldn't encourage anyone from from trying anything that helps them stay sober. I don't discourage moderation unless the person has already tired it...several times. So what's the Beef? Are their heretics among us?

stevieg46

Hi Fatbat , I understand what you are saying , to me for an alcoholic to fall back into old habits is a matter of life and death alcohol kills people causes destruction growing up and toughening up in relation to sobriety are essential if one wants to remain sober and grow in strength into peace of mind whilst being sober , we all have adversity in life some harder than others , so in my way of thinking we need to ensure and be able to have a built in defence of not lifting a drink no matter what no matter the circumstance ,we need to grow up emotionally (feelings ) and toughen up inner strength in order to go though life alcoholic or not , I am not a cold or harsh person I care very much about sobriety , I care for other people trying to stay or get sober , reality must be faced , fact is stressors , triggers , addictive voices , urges , if one dwells on them long enough the alcoholic will drink again and use those occurrences as an excuse for doing so , sometimes we don't want to hear things but soft soaping and mollycoddling and petted lips are not helpful , in fact they have the opposite effect , I remember folks saying'' the quicker you grow up the better '' take care.

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .

Dee74

I think the phrase 'grow up' is unfortunate Stevie cos it kinda suggests a value judgement on the poster you're posting too...

it also suggests that you're already 'grown up' and that all others need to catch you up, and think just like you do....

I'm sure that's not what you meant

Reaching an emotional maturity might be a more precise way of what I think you're trying to say - although telling someone they need to be something else is always a way strewn with danger...

We've differed on several points over various threads - I don't believe that everyone needs tough love for example - but I wouldn't suggest either of us need to 'grow up' anymore than we already have

I appreciate your different points of view even if I may not share all of them - I think that's about as 'grown up' as any of us can get ?

D

Dropsie

I rarely disagree with Dee or Anna, but here is my take.

First, I think its very helpful for folks to know what didn't work for others so they know if it doesn't work for them, don't worry - you can still stop.

Of course, its all in the delivery, but as long as you are kind about it, saying that did not work for me should not be discouraged.

I also think the idea that the OP, who is actually very high in the emotional maturity department, felt triggered by AA is also helpful for others to know in case they are.

A trigger can never be "wrong" because its a fact. You are triggered or you are not. What you do about it is a choice.

For me, we would all be helped by remembering that the concept of AA is all about tolerance, the practice sometimes less so. Which I find unfortunate. But that is true about a lot of good things -- as they say in AA, be kind always.

Grungehead

I think it's human nature to want to promote what has worked for us and "warn" others what has not worked for us. All you have to do is read a review online of just about any product you can think of. It doesn't matter how good or bad the overall rating is, there will be people adamant that the product in question is the best or the worst product ever made.

I know that early on I was much more apt to tout AA and "come to its defense" if someone said something bad about it because it literally saved my life. But being around SR for close to 3 years now I have seen other recovery programs saving lives as well. And that is the whole point of of SR is it not? To help other people escape the throes of alcoholism/addiction and get their lives back?

There's a saying about "staying in the solution" in the recovery world. I think that's what I take from SR asking members not to speak negatively about recovery programs. I want to hear how people are staying sober on a daily basis, regardless of what method they use. I don't really need to hear what didn't work since I was already an expert at that when I got here.

stevieg46

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Hi DEE.

Trying to figure the mood of the poster or how the person you are addressing is very difficult, it is about how one reacts or even better about the mood of the original poster .

I never posted in an angry or judgmental mood , I meant well with the points I tried to put across through my personal experience in blaming something for causing me to drink or made me think of lifting a drink .

People in recovery go through umpteen phases depending on their attitude their strength of character or how they cope emotionally that is human nature , some people handle things differently .

Someone who is really down in the dumps and allows the mood to get worse can say oh to hell with it and feel like a drink or lifting one .

Then some who allow themselves rightly or wrongly to get really angry and allows resentment to set in and remains in that frame of mind fuming making themselves worse and not sharing their feelings with others can get that angry and think about alcohol or in fact lifting a drink .

Others suffer some personal events and lose control of their emotional state and cant see any way out of the situation and lose hope or whatever will eventually think of alcohol and if they are not strong enough to resist they to will either drink or think about it .

Why ? because alcohol is the solution, the substance that takes all these feelings away , makes you feel better for a while lifts the depression for a while , or it calms down your anger and knots in the gut makes you feel a bit better and so on , or the one with personal loss or upsets lifts a drink and seeks oblivion .

We can call them triggers stressers , addictive voice or whatever , end of the day they are just excuses , alcoholics like myself were past masters of inventing and manufacturing excuses , rationalizing justifying our behavior , the blame game .

Reality is no one pours it down our throat , we feel like lifting a drink we then have to go and get it , open it pour it out lift it up and drink it because our mood frame of mind our lack of realization or of the consequences are pushed aside .

AA Lifering AVRT , SMART all impress do not lift the first drink in order to get and stay sober , learn to change our outlooks and attitudes, learn to say no in any given situation .

Reason (not excuse ) people drink is because of their alcoholic thinking and they want to drink as it is the comforter the solution the answer .(in their alcoholic frame of mind )

I know a guy in Glasgow who's teenage daughter was brutally raped throat cut and murdered and found in a ditch , this guy had to identify her , and has never lifted a drink , I went through bad times as I posted about , but when it happened I thought about that guy and it gave me strength .

Long time ago in my early AA time , this guy hit me hard with a couple of truths , I did not like what he said and was raging , couple of days later I said to the guy he was right in what he said ! but ? he should never have said it the fashion he did because I could have got that upset and went for a drink ! he looked at me , reached over grabbed my harm and said '' **** off want to drink there' s a bar over there want to get drunk then go ahead people drink because they want to , do not use anyone or anything as an excuse '' I though ''barsteward '' but he was right , I thank God for the people who gave it to me straight , most of the things I did not like that people said applied to me . Maybe I grew up in the hard knock school of life .

I do not fly the banner for AA I love AA it saved my life , it is not the ''only way '' I have posted on LIFERING for 9 years offering help to others , no steps higher powers are allowed to be discussed , I do this because I care , I have seen many different posts , some attention seekers , some looking for sympathy , some looking for genuine help cant tell what the posters actual frame of mind is or their response to how they interpret your reply .

My experience is I had to grow up emotionally and toughen up mentally which helped me greatly in maintaining sobriety , those that say ''what's the use ? never get far '' I try and pass on my experience to others with the best of intentions .

Living in the solution as every sobriety outfit proposes is much better than living in the problem .

Addictive voices , Stressers , Triggers , Urges , are all meant to be ''listened to and dismissed '' not used as excuses to drink , that is my main point .

Sorry for lengthy post Dee but felt it was better to illustrate my intent and why .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006