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Is this progress, or something else?

Old 02-11-2016, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by KiKi0615 View Post
I agree with this Thomas. Is your goal to cut down & moderate or quit permanently?

Stay strong! :-)
I have no interest in trying to moderate.
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Old 02-11-2016, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mountainmanbob View Post
That was a good starting point for me.
Keeping an eye on the one in the mirror.
Not to let self deception play out.
Mountainman
MM, sometimes its a bit uncomfortable though because standing in a packed bar with diet coke looking like a dope is sometimes not ideal. But I just can't bring myself to drink in a bar.
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Old 02-11-2016, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Fly N Buy View Post
Progress not perfection. Glad you made it back from a relapse two weeks ago - the only thing any alcohol must do perfectly is not drink or use.

Keep coming back
Thanks FNB, I got a little discouraged a couple weeks ago and did not want to post anything. But as long as there are people that can find some small value in my contributions, I will remain active. I enjoy contributing what little I can.
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Old 02-11-2016, 06:18 AM
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My feeling on this is that yes, your life has improved dramatically from where you were. When you first started posting your drinking was completely out of control, and even after your accident you were in near complete denial that you had a problem. The fact you were even aware enough of the issue to find this site seemed like a small miracle.

And now you're writing things like Dee just quoted, about how damaging alcohol is to you. So yes, that is big progress.

But I think there's an underlying aspect to why you started this thread, and that is a feeling that you aren't getting the respect and approval that this progress deserves. For example, people who have gone 2 weeks since their last drink usually get huge amounts of congratulations and encouragement. Everyone here knows how tough that is. But in this thread only two people have congratulated you on that without reservations, the rest have raised questions about the progress you've made in one way or another. So why is that? I totally get how that probably doesn't seem fair to you.

So here's why I think that is.

I think it's down to none of us knowing what it is you want to achieve. And that probably includes you. I personally wouldn't be remotely surprised if tomorrow you posted that friends came over with a vintage Bordeaux they'd bought on holiday in France 20 years ago, and how proud you are that you only had one glass, and how you only had that because it would have been disrespectful to your friends if you had turned it down.

And I genuinely don't know if you'd see that as a relapse, a slip, or further proof of your success and progress. I really don't.

And that makes it hard for me to know whether you've made progress or not, because many of us believe that once a problem drinker, always a problem drinker, and the more special occasions you have where you drink a small amount, the more likely those occasions will get more frequent, and the amounts will get larger. Because that's how alcoholism works. Many of us don't believe in moderation the same way many of us don't believe in Santa Clause. Much as we'd love to believe in both

What your goal is, and the journey to get there, is of course your choice. And the only one who can say what kind of progress you're making to getting there, is you. But I'm hoping you can at least understand why some of us are reacting a bit like Sancho Panza watching Don Quixote charging off towards a windmill. We may admire the effort and enthusiasm, but have serious doubts about what you're actually trying to achieve.
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Old 02-11-2016, 08:53 AM
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Along with what OT posted above, why did you answer a rather straight forward question about moderation vs quitting in a very unstraightforward manner?
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Old 02-11-2016, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by OpenTuning View Post
My feeling on this is that yes, your life has improved dramatically from where you were. When you first started posting your drinking was completely out of control, and even after your accident you were in near complete denial that you had a problem. The fact you were even aware enough of the issue to find this site seemed like a small miracle.

And now you're writing things like Dee just quoted, about how damaging alcohol is to you. So yes, that is big progress.

But I think there's an underlying aspect to why you started this thread, and that is a feeling that you aren't getting the respect and approval that this progress deserves. For example, people who have gone 2 weeks since their last drink usually get huge amounts of congratulations and encouragement. Everyone here knows how tough that is. But in this thread only two people have congratulated you on that without reservations, the rest have raised questions about the progress you've made in one way or another. So why is that? I totally get how that probably doesn't seem fair to you.

So here's why I think that is.

I think it's down to none of us knowing what it is you want to achieve. And that probably includes you. I personally wouldn't be remotely surprised if tomorrow you posted that friends came over with a vintage Bordeaux they'd bought on holiday in France 20 years ago, and how proud you are that you only had one glass, and how you only had that because it would have been disrespectful to your friends if you had turned it down.

And I genuinely don't know if you'd see that as a relapse, a slip, or further proof of your success and progress. I really don't.

And that makes it hard for me to know whether you've made progress or not, because many of us believe that once a problem drinker, always a problem drinker, and the more special occasions you have where you drink a small amount, the more likely those occasions will get more frequent, and the amounts will get larger. Because that's how alcoholism works. Many of us don't believe in moderation the same way many of us don't believe in Santa Clause. Much as we'd love to believe in both

What your goal is, and the journey to get there, is of course your choice. And the only one who can say what kind of progress you're making to getting there, is you. But I'm hoping you can at least understand why some of us are reacting a bit like Sancho Panza watching Don Quixote charging off towards a windmill. We may admire the effort and enthusiasm, but have serious doubts about what you're actually trying to achieve.
Well OpenTuning, first I thank you for reading the entire thread because you've laid it out pretty clearly. Some might say I was fishing for compliments. Not entirely. But I am a person who reacts much better with a pat on the back than I do a kick in gut. I grew up with parents where the only tool they had was a hammer, so everything I did, I was the nail. It made me rebel. I literally could do nothing right, still can't most of the time in their eyes.
Regardless of what some people may think, I will tell you what I think. I have made progress, I have made sacrifices, I have made changes in my life. I've had to cut out friends and decline invitations, and when I have gone to things I've been invited to, I've been pressured to drink. This did not sit well with some of my friends. Resentment. I've been drunk once in 8 months (it was 21 days ago to be exact). I used to be drunk 8 times a month. I didn't even know alcohol was dangerous until I was 45 years old. The extent of the consequences alcohol had in my mind was a DUI and/or a hangover. I didn't know what withdrawal was. I didn't know about high blood pressure and all the other health ailments. Well, I do now.
As far as my goal, like any good politician, I'll never allow myself to get boxed in with an answer, and I think that pisses some people off. But my goal is sobriety. This will also probably make some people angry, but if I got drunk 6 months from now, I would not wake up feeling suicidal. I'd be ok. But if I got drunk on a Friday night, drank all day on a Saturday and needed a couple on Sunday to level out, it would be straight to treatment. My wife and I have already made that agreement. Sorry that got a little long winded but I hope it answers some questions.
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Old 02-11-2016, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dwtbd View Post
Along with what OT posted above, why did you answer a rather straight forward question about moderation vs quitting in a very unstraightforward manner?
It't my nature. And its kind of complicated. I've had very important people in my life make "absolute" statements or promises while sober and while intoxicated and not follow through with those promises. It made me think less of them, permanently. I'm old school, a man is only as good as his word. So I avoid boxing myself in and rarely make absolute statements. If I was to say, "I will never let alcohol touch my lips again for the rest of my life", and 2 years from now I have complete meltdown and go on a bender, well now I've broken that promise and what are those people who I made that statement to going to think of me. They are going to think I'm an untrustworthy failure. And a liar. And weak. Right? And the mean ones are going to rub it in my face to make me feel even worse because it makes them feel good to make others feel horrible about themselves.
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Old 02-11-2016, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by thomas11 View Post
It't my nature. And its kind of complicated. I've had very important people in my life make "absolute" statements or promises while sober and while intoxicated and not follow through with those promises. It made me think less of them, permanently. I'm old school, a man is only as good as his word. So I avoid boxing myself in and rarely make absolute statements. If I was to say, "I will never let alcohol touch my lips again for the rest of my life", and 2 years from now I have complete meltdown and go on a bender, well now I've broken that promise and what are those people who I made that statement to going to think of me. They are going to think I'm an untrustworthy failure. And a liar. And weak. Right? And the mean ones are going to rub it in my face to make me feel even worse because it makes them feel good to make others feel horrible about themselves.
If your nature is to not commit to things because you are afraid of what other people will think, then you need to change your nature Thomas. You have absolutely zero control over other people, and that's been a recurring issue for you ever since you've been here on SR. You cannot control your family, you cannot control your friends, you cannot control what other people think or say, especially what the "might" do 2 years from now.

You made black and white commitments to your customers for years - and followed through on them. So to say that it's your nature to not commit to things is not true....except in the case of your addiction. Think about that.
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Old 02-11-2016, 10:52 AM
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I am just starting this same journey. I was almost daily then to binging then to binging much less. All is getting better and better. I am on day 4 binge and alcohol free.

This time I know I can do the things I enjoy that alcohol is around and either abstain or drink a few. I bever want to binge again and have made a promise to myself and SR.

Please never binge again. Its not good for us or the ones around us. Hey, think about this. How great has it been to remember these events even after a few. Some people can and some cant. As of now you can but please be careful and dont binge or get drunk for that matter.
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Old 02-11-2016, 10:53 AM
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You really only need to answer that particular question to and for yourself.

I've found taking the internal stance that I 've quit means I don't 'make sacrifices , or have resentments' . I'm sure I was mopier and resentful in the early offing, actually I know I let my emotions show through. I remember apologizing to family members at the end of my first vacation , about a week after deciding to quit. But with time it has become , comfortably so , the new norm , so much so I'm sure that it can tend to color my perspective and recollection of how hard it can be, at first. I'm fairly old school too, and I am not saying any of this to give myself pats on the back, just sharing how important that internal stance is , and how freeing it can be.
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Old 02-11-2016, 11:44 AM
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If I was to say, "I will never let alcohol touch my lips again for the rest of my life", and 2 years from now I have complete meltdown and go on a bender, well now I've broken that promise and what are those people who I made that statement to going to think of me. They are going to think I'm an untrustworthy failure. And a liar. And weak. Right? And the mean ones are going to rub it in my face to make me feel even worse because it makes them feel good to make others feel horrible about themselves.

oh good grief, are we in Junior High???? worried about our "cred" and our popularity and what the other clique is saying about us???

we don't make the commitment to get sober and STAY sober for anyone else or in hopes of gaining approval. we do it for ourselves and the rest of them can all go to hell in a handtruck. the only person we need to worry about letting down is the one looking back at us in the mirror.

sorry jeff, i'm not buying that load.....not from you.

you know that here on SR we can't give kudos to moderation......its impractical and potentially deadly. i mean people make dashes across busy freeways and SURVIVE, but no one throws them a party for doing so. no one says YAY your stupidity didn't kill you today!

one thing i want to caution you about....right now you are posting positively about being sober, the benefits, doing the Superbowl sober, etc. yet i've seen this pattern with you before...where you start talking BIG about NOT drinking, while not commiting to not drinking and then next thing ya know......ole Jeffy had himself a drinkie poo. be careful you aren't that boy whistling in the dark they talk about in the Big Book..........
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Old 02-11-2016, 12:10 PM
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".ole Jeffy had himself a drinkie poo. be careful you aren't that boy whistling in the dark they talk about in the Big Book.........."

I have not read the big book, could you give me the gist of your statement?
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Old 02-11-2016, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by thomas11 View Post
I have not read the big book, could you give me the gist of your statement?
I can't help with the gist of his statement, but if you've never read the big book please pick up a copy, even if you never plan on setting foot in an AA meeting. It has a lot of good information that can benefit anyone seeking sobriety. Google AA big book and you'll find online versions for free.
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Old 02-11-2016, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thomas11 View Post
It't my nature. And its kind of complicated. I've had very important people in my life make "absolute" statements or promises while sober and while intoxicated and not follow through with those promises. It made me think less of them, permanently. I'm old school, a man is only as good as his word. So I avoid boxing myself in and rarely make absolute statements. If I was to say, "I will never let alcohol touch my lips again for the rest of my life", and 2 years from now I have complete meltdown and go on a bender, well now I've broken that promise and what are those people who I made that statement to going to think of me. They are going to think I'm an untrustworthy failure. And a liar. And weak. Right? And the mean ones are going to rub it in my face to make me feel even worse because it makes them feel good to make others feel horrible about themselves.
I think I understand what you're saying. I'm pretty much the same way. If I say I'm going to do something, I do it. That's the way I was raised. Something big would have to happen before I don't follow through on a promise. But if something does happen, I'll apologize to that person and move on. If that person doesn't accept my apology then that's on that person. As long as I did my best and I'm honest with myself, I'm fine. I think it's the same with drinking. If I commit myself to not drinking and manage a few years and something really trumatic happens and I messed up then maybe coming on SR and saying sorry, I blew it, makes sense, then move on. If some people have an issue with it, that's on them. It really doesn't matter if someone gets on my case for screwing, as long as I'm honest with myself. That to me is what's really important. John
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Old 02-11-2016, 02:33 PM
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Hi Jeff - I replied to you elsewhere before I read this thread but nonetheless it kinda illustrates what I was talking about.

Making statements like 'if I got drunk 6 months from now, I would not wake up feeling suicidal' : to you, thats honesty.

To some of us that's AV - it's worrying to me for example that you still see no distinction between AV and you in the that sentence - and it could even be seen as a sign that, even now, your commitment to sobriety is conditional.

I understand that you dislike 'kicks in the gut'. Who does?

I'd like you to consider they're not kicks in the gut tho.

It's people trying to help you not makes the mistakes they did.

'You go Jeffs' and 'attaboys' are nice but honestly IMO they're not what you need right now.

OpenTuning said maybe you're not sure who you are right now. I think thats true. I think you're still in early recovery.

Thats not to put you down either - it's not a race, we each have our journeys and yours has been a tough one.

But there's a 'flip' our brain does at a certain point from 'I'm not sure I can stay sober' to 'maybe I can stay sober' and then to 'I want to stay sober'.

I think your brain has done 90 degrees, maybe more....but I'm not sure it's at the full 180 yet.

I get the stuff about making absolute statements - but honestly Jeff if you can't back yourself in this battle now, when can you?

Your focus needs to be on you, not other people people and what they might think.

That's another little benefit of the brain flip. I'm much more my own man now than I ever was before.



I really think being able to pick out your AV would be a great skill for you to learn.

If nothing else you'd be left with essential Jeff which will probably be as much a revelation to you as it was essential real Dee was to me.

Any of the Rational Recovery books, or threads in our Secular Connections forum, could be useful.

I don't think they'll mind me saying they're pretty light on hugs in that method - but like I said I'm not sure you need that right now.

I also recommend the Big Book as essential reading for anyone who wants to be sober and stay that way - you can find it online or any library

D
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Old 02-11-2016, 03:12 PM
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Jeff, just to be clear but i don't think it says drinkie poo in the Big Book! don't want to be accused of misquoting.

i too highly recommend it - yes folks will gripe but it was written SO longgg ago and the tone of the text is just not relevant, blah blah blah, or it's sexist. which totally misses the point! there is a wealth of information to be had, ideas, concepts, stories and it gives the most accurate description of the alcoholic ever. IMHO.

anyways, the boy whistling in the dark bit is out of Chapter 11

A Vision For You.

For most of normal folks, drinking means conviviality, companionship and colorful imagination. It means release from care, boredom and worry. It is joyous intimacy with friends and a feeling that life is good. But not so with us in those last days of heavy drinking. The old pleasures were gone. They were but memories. Never could we recapture the great moments of the past. There was an insistent yearning to enjoy life as we once did and a heartbreaking obsession that some new miracle of control would enable us to do it. There was always one more attempt and one more failure.

The less people tolerated us, the more we withdrew from society, from life itself. As we became subjects of King Alcohol, shivering denizens of his mad realm, the chilling vapor that is loneliness settled down. It thickened, ever becoming blacker. Some of us sought out sordid places, hoping to find understanding companionship and approval. Momentarily we did then would come oblivion and the awful awakening to face the hideous Four Horsemen Terror, Bewilderment, Frustration, Despair. Unhappy drinkers who read this page will understand.

Now and then a serious drinker, being dry at the moment says, "I don't miss it at all. Feel better. Work better. Having a better time." As ex-problem drinkers, we smile at such a sally. We know our friend is like a boy whistling in the dark to keep up his spirits. He fools himself. Inwardly he would give anything to take half a dozen drinks and get away with them. He will presently try the old game again, for he isn't happy with his sobriety. He cannot picture life without alcohol. Someday he will be unable to imagine life either with alcohol or without it. Then he will know loneliness such as few do. He will be at the jumping off place. He will wish for the end.

Quoted with the permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.

Last edited by Dee74; 02-11-2016 at 10:37 PM. Reason: copyright requirement.
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Old 02-11-2016, 03:59 PM
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It just seems like you haven't fully grasped how much danger you are in by continuing to drink even a little. You still have choice going for you now. You can turn down the first drink if you want to. You are not dependent on it.

When I quit I couldn't guarantee anything either. I still can't say for 100% that I won't screw up. I vowed to do whatever I had to do to make it and I made drinking non negotiable. That's the only way I know how to quit. This open ended maybe is setting you up for some serious cravings.

Nothing good can come from messing around with this anymore, only pain. The fact that you are willing to risk so much for so little should be a tip off that you are not looking at this clearly. You're worth more than that Jeff.
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Old 02-11-2016, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by thomas11 View Post
All I can say is that I am steering the ship and its going in the proper direction. Each day it becomes slightly clearer that returning to a lifestyle of alcohol is just not a wise choice. Moderation is a complete joke and binge drinking will kill me. Almost all of my problems are rooted in alcohol, my few successes have been entrenched in hard work, focus and alcohol had no seat at the table.
Bro, what in the world is your reason for not committing to sobriety? Do you expect your relationship to alcohol to get better somehow? It sounds to me like you are afraid of committing and subsequently failing in the eyes of others, but is that possibility worth giving up your life for? If you are like most of us, your current "progress" is a lull in the storm. I hope that does not sound harsh, but i say it because it is also a wonderful opportunity to use the improvements you have made as a stepping stone to total sobriety. You have some confidence and perspective now and I really hear you wanting to do that but having some fear and intellectual self talk (AV) about it. Do it, today, NOW, we are with you!
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Old 02-12-2016, 12:12 AM
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Not commenting on you Jeff, but for me, there has been a world of difference
in my absolute resolve to not drink, not moderate, not nada no more
as opposed to my "I'm stopping for a year and then we'll see" stance
which was all I could bear to commit to when I first started the journey to sobriety.

Before, I did leave the door open a crack because at some level my AV
was still calling the shots and betting on my long-term inability to say no forever.
And it was right.
18 months or so into a very solid recovery, I did really think I could have a few
here and there and that my relationship to alcohol had changed.
It worked for awhile, but the moderation actually rehydrated the beast
and gradually I was finding myself slipping back into non-moderate drinking
on occasion.
I was smart enough to see where it was going,
and since I have shut the door and said no, it is so much easier
to put alcohol behind me all together since it is off the table as an option
forever as far as I am concerned now.
This has made things easier, not harder.
It would for you too if you would let yourself go there
and really own sobriety as a life choice from now on.

I do think you've made great progress, and I do sincerely offer that pat on the back,
but your inner resistance really is also pretty apparent to me, mainly because
I also carried it these past four years until I finally saw
it wasn't serving me,
I was serving it.
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Old 02-12-2016, 01:45 AM
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So if I understand this right, you won't commit to sobriety because you're a man of your word, and if you go on a bender you're worried the people you care about will be upset with you because you broke your promise.

May I respectfully suggest that they'll be upset because you've gone on a bender regardless of any promises you have or haven't made. You dying, or destroying your life and family forever will be the priority for them.

But one thing is for sure, leaving that door open to allow yourself those mini-benders (your rule with your wife lets you drink heavily for two nights in a row, as long as you stop by the following afternoon, which is a pretty wide open door you've left yourself) dramatically increases the chances that you will start drinking again.

It took me 4 months after stopping before I made my Big Plan. That I do not drink and will never drink again. I didn't even realise I was wanting to keep the option open to drink again, I'd come up with a different but similar excuse that fooled me for a few months.

I'm also a man of my word. And that helps me to keep alcohol off the table. I've used that to stay sober. You're using it to keep alcohol an option in your life.

As Dee said, if you could learn to recognise when your AV is doing your writing and thinking it could really change your life. You've made enormous progress, you should be proud of that. The trick now is to find a way to make that progress permanent. You and alcohol just weren't meant to be together. Unfair, yes, but that's just how it is.
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