Relapsed after 8 months
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Originally Posted by OpenTuning 
James,
Sorry to see things have gone wrong for you and drinking has taken over again.
I'm someone who believes passionately in science and the scientific method.
But let me throw two words at you. Confirmation Bias.
There are countless studies showing the damaging effects of alcohol. The UK government recently released new drinking guidelines based on that science, which shows that there is no safe amount of alcohol to drink. Their new recommended maximum daily amount is 3-4 units for men (about 1.5 cans of Guinness). And even that is just considered an acceptable level of risk, rather than a safe amount.
Your attempt at moderate drinking appeared to involve starting with well over that amount. So already you were ignoring the advice from valid scientific studies.
Why? I would suggest it's perhaps because those studies did not conform with what you wanted to hear (or your AV wanted to hear, to be more precise). That drinking the amount you want to drink is safe and scientifically valid. This is not the place to debate different studies, but where the scientific method can go wrong is when you start with a result you want to achieve, and then go looking for evidence to back that up, ignoring the evidence that doesn't fit. Confirmation bias.
But ultimately, all of this is irrelevant, because there's a much simpler approach. Why role the dice at all, regardless of what science does or doesn't say about the odds, given you know for an absolute fact, from direct personal experience, how devastating an impact alcohol has on you?
Sorry to see things have gone wrong for you and drinking has taken over again.
I'm someone who believes passionately in science and the scientific method.
But let me throw two words at you. Confirmation Bias.
There are countless studies showing the damaging effects of alcohol. The UK government recently released new drinking guidelines based on that science, which shows that there is no safe amount of alcohol to drink. Their new recommended maximum daily amount is 3-4 units for men (about 1.5 cans of Guinness). And even that is just considered an acceptable level of risk, rather than a safe amount.
Your attempt at moderate drinking appeared to involve starting with well over that amount. So already you were ignoring the advice from valid scientific studies.
Why? I would suggest it's perhaps because those studies did not conform with what you wanted to hear (or your AV wanted to hear, to be more precise). That drinking the amount you want to drink is safe and scientifically valid. This is not the place to debate different studies, but where the scientific method can go wrong is when you start with a result you want to achieve, and then go looking for evidence to back that up, ignoring the evidence that doesn't fit. Confirmation bias.
But ultimately, all of this is irrelevant, because there's a much simpler approach. Why role the dice at all, regardless of what science does or doesn't say about the odds, given you know for an absolute fact, from direct personal experience, how devastating an impact alcohol has on you?
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Originally Posted by Bunny211
I had a hard time accepting AA as well. Where are the empirical studies? Has science "proven" that I can't drink? What is this "allergy" to alcohol? It all seemed like junk science to me. But, I now accept that if I put booze in the hole in my face I end up drunk within 24 hours. In 24 hours I will go from being a productive, working member of society to a hopeless mess, un showered and passed out on my sofa. When all else fails, I am still petrified to death of alcohol and THAT keeps me sober!
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
James, you mention science, and you may have fooled some of the responders here about your use of the word, but from my understanding, you tossed science right in the bin along with your sobriety. Science didn't mislead you, you did that perfectly well on your own. The purest science you have, your own experience, says that drinking alcohol does not go well for you, and there is no evidence to think that it ever will.
Here's a statistic for you. Three quarters of alcoholics get sober without any formal recovery program. This doesn't tell YOU what to do or HOW to do it, but that you can make the choices you need to make to get sober and stay sober.
There is no reason to drink, James. None. And no reason to skip your classes.
Please keep reaching out for support from any avenue, including SR. You can do this. You must do this. So.........
Onward!
Here's a statistic for you. Three quarters of alcoholics get sober without any formal recovery program. This doesn't tell YOU what to do or HOW to do it, but that you can make the choices you need to make to get sober and stay sober.
There is no reason to drink, James. None. And no reason to skip your classes.
Please keep reaching out for support from any avenue, including SR. You can do this. You must do this. So.........
Onward!
But thank you, I know the 75% statistic (statistics are usually the only veracious form of science :P) and I know I need to stop.
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Originally Posted by HighDraw18
Hmm interesting. It's easy to get bogged down in rationalizing and utilizing logic (twisted logic but logic nonetheless) to remain active in our addictions.
I would argue that it's very easy to claim that one is "too smart" or "too rational" to buy into widely accepted means of treating addiction.
The difficult part is possessing enough self-awareness to evaluate addiction and its effects on one's life, comprehending the depth of the situation, and finding the best path to recovery. This requires that all bias be put aside. Is it wiser to argue and analyze each point of recovery ad nauseam or objectively recognize that our lives have become unmanageable and seek an appropriate way to rectify that?
Just my two cents.
I would argue that it's very easy to claim that one is "too smart" or "too rational" to buy into widely accepted means of treating addiction.
The difficult part is possessing enough self-awareness to evaluate addiction and its effects on one's life, comprehending the depth of the situation, and finding the best path to recovery. This requires that all bias be put aside. Is it wiser to argue and analyze each point of recovery ad nauseam or objectively recognize that our lives have become unmanageable and seek an appropriate way to rectify that?
Just my two cents.
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Originally Posted by HighDraw18
Hmm interesting. It's easy to get bogged down in rationalizing and utilizing logic (twisted logic but logic nonetheless) to remain active in our addictions.
I would argue that it's very easy to claim that one is "too smart" or "too rational" to buy into widely accepted means of treating addiction.
The difficult part is possessing enough self-awareness to evaluate addiction and its effects on one's life, comprehending the depth of the situation, and finding the best path to recovery. This requires that all bias be put aside. Is it wiser to argue and analyze each point of recovery ad nauseam or objectively recognize that our lives have become unmanageable and seek an appropriate way to rectify that?
Just my two cents.
I would argue that it's very easy to claim that one is "too smart" or "too rational" to buy into widely accepted means of treating addiction.
The difficult part is possessing enough self-awareness to evaluate addiction and its effects on one's life, comprehending the depth of the situation, and finding the best path to recovery. This requires that all bias be put aside. Is it wiser to argue and analyze each point of recovery ad nauseam or objectively recognize that our lives have become unmanageable and seek an appropriate way to rectify that?
Just my two cents.
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Originally Posted by JamesfrmEngland
Well I did choose that amount based on the limits originally, they are 3-4 per day or 14 per week, so I choose 4 cans on two days which is 14 in total.
It's easy to rationalise behaviour and go out and find ways to justify what we do or don't want to do. I guess I'm just encouraging you to take ownership of your decisions and not claim a dubious scientific basis for them. I mean, you're even denying on here that it's possible for you to know that alcohol is damaging you, from your own personal experience of it, even though it's doing to you exactly what science says alcohol does.
And please believe me when I say I'm not judging your for this. What you've written struck me, because I used to do the same thing. My moderation, which I tried near the end of my drinking career, involved staying under what was then the 28 unit weekly total. Which I'd drink in one or two sessions. Classic binge drinker. I knew perfectly well that wasn't what the guidelines meant. But it helped me to feel I was being successful at moderating when I clearly wasn't. I could truthfully tell my doctor (and did) that I followed the guidelines. Before I could quit, I had to be honest with myself about what I was really doing.
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I am currently trying moderation too - not recommending it , but I'm trying it .
The carrot analogy isn't very strong . Self reported studies form the basis of many strong scientific studies . And qualitative studies are often or usually based on self reported experiences.
I went 14 months without drinking . And in many ways it was easier than moderating . But not in all ways . And hence I am where I am.
But James whatever you do thank you for sparking this thread . The replies are exceptional , and have given me a lot of food for thought .
All the best. And like what someone else said , don't skip your classes . Keep going . Regardless . I think for all of us a major key to getting healthier is having a goal bigger and outside of ourselves . For me study provides that , and it probably does for you too .
The carrot analogy isn't very strong . Self reported studies form the basis of many strong scientific studies . And qualitative studies are often or usually based on self reported experiences.
I went 14 months without drinking . And in many ways it was easier than moderating . But not in all ways . And hence I am where I am.
But James whatever you do thank you for sparking this thread . The replies are exceptional , and have given me a lot of food for thought .
All the best. And like what someone else said , don't skip your classes . Keep going . Regardless . I think for all of us a major key to getting healthier is having a goal bigger and outside of ourselves . For me study provides that , and it probably does for you too .
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The science I was referring to, based on your personal experience, was what happens when you drink.
Change will happen when you decide that the last drink you had will be the last one you will have. There is nothing good about that next drink. No relief, no relaxation, no escape. Nothing in that glass but more of the same.
There is good news, and that is you can stop. You can do it any time. Including Wednesdays. Now is optimal.
Change will happen when you decide that the last drink you had will be the last one you will have. There is nothing good about that next drink. No relief, no relaxation, no escape. Nothing in that glass but more of the same.
There is good news, and that is you can stop. You can do it any time. Including Wednesdays. Now is optimal.
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Originally Posted by JamesfrmEngland
If I even had anything to relapse.
Was sober 8 months from all drink and drugs. Some underlying depression and not totally happy in sobriety but most of the time pretty happy. Half in and half out of AA because it doesn't fit with what I know about science.
Anyway, I thought I could "drink like a gentleman" and upon reading other non-AA stuff felt I could handle my drink now. I know statistically that moderation is usually as effective a treatment as abstinence so I thought I'd try it. I know about "real alcoholics" vs. "hard drinkers" and all that but that's not scientific so I have never gone for it. I started on 4 Guinesses friday two weeks ago. Experiment went well, didn't feel it much, felt mellow. Saturday day after had 4 Guinesses again, went okay once again. The following Friday repeated the same, 4 cans of Guiness. Saturday 4 Guinesses and ordered pizza. This is when it started to go wrong. I promised myself I would only drink two days a week but I have been under stress because my Master's dissertation first draft had to be in on Sunday. So therefore I thought get 4 more Guinness to reduce stress and I write better when drinking anyway (or maybe I don't, I don't know). Once I had drank them I thought I am not drunk enough maybe I should go to the shop for a quarter of vodka. In England shops close at 11pm, I didn't go but nearly did and waited until after 11pm I couldn't get beer anyway. I didn't drink yday and went to rehab centre, I am now drinking today (4 Guinesses) and will probably go to the shop after for quarter vodka. I am already planning university tomorrow, I do not want to go but have to attend or I will not get my certificates if I miss one day of attendance. Therefore, I will probably drink in the lectures because I will be sweating and anxiety high after tonight
Was sober 8 months from all drink and drugs. Some underlying depression and not totally happy in sobriety but most of the time pretty happy. Half in and half out of AA because it doesn't fit with what I know about science.
Anyway, I thought I could "drink like a gentleman" and upon reading other non-AA stuff felt I could handle my drink now. I know statistically that moderation is usually as effective a treatment as abstinence so I thought I'd try it. I know about "real alcoholics" vs. "hard drinkers" and all that but that's not scientific so I have never gone for it. I started on 4 Guinesses friday two weeks ago. Experiment went well, didn't feel it much, felt mellow. Saturday day after had 4 Guinesses again, went okay once again. The following Friday repeated the same, 4 cans of Guiness. Saturday 4 Guinesses and ordered pizza. This is when it started to go wrong. I promised myself I would only drink two days a week but I have been under stress because my Master's dissertation first draft had to be in on Sunday. So therefore I thought get 4 more Guinness to reduce stress and I write better when drinking anyway (or maybe I don't, I don't know). Once I had drank them I thought I am not drunk enough maybe I should go to the shop for a quarter of vodka. In England shops close at 11pm, I didn't go but nearly did and waited until after 11pm I couldn't get beer anyway. I didn't drink yday and went to rehab centre, I am now drinking today (4 Guinesses) and will probably go to the shop after for quarter vodka. I am already planning university tomorrow, I do not want to go but have to attend or I will not get my certificates if I miss one day of attendance. Therefore, I will probably drink in the lectures because I will be sweating and anxiety high after tonight
And now you can see clearly right where "science" and "thinking" will land you where recovery is concerned.
Turns out, we cannot "science" our way sober or "think" our way into a happy recovery.
As hard as it may be, you need to let go and find acceptance at some point.
There are many.... MANY things about "science" that are yet to be explained. Nobody has fully explained or proven many of the "theories" upon which modern "science" is based. Many are the explanations science has brought us, which were later revealed to be false.
One thing you might try is simply acknowledging that there is MYSTERY in science. And perhaps - just perhaps - that "MYSTERY" is a power greater than yourself. Or perhaps that the unified one-ness of everything that "SCIENCE" gives you is in itself a higher power.
Is it at least POSSIBLE that by asking subatomic particles for help, we might influence the fabric of reality in a manner that in fact HELPS us?
I say - absolutely. And if you say "DEFINITELY NOT!!! Science has PROVEN it".... then I say - you have just demonstrated that you don't actually get SCIENCE - because science cannot prove the negative!!!
SO....
Is there a possibility that you might be willing to believe that there are as-yet-explained pieces of SCIENCE that are actually about FAITH? Is there a possibility that you might be able to simply set aside the insistence on trying to logic and rationality your way to sobriety and just BELIEVE that if you shift your mind toward acceptance and toward the intention to embrace sobriety - it may in fact tip your reality in the direction you so need?
Here's a science experiment for you;
Go down to the sea or a field or a wide open space in the morning, and try with all your might to stop the sun from rising.
When you realize that you cannot... then you must accept through your own firsthand research that there IS a power greater than yourself. You can choose to call it "science" and explain it via gravitational this and that's and name various theories that 'explain' it all.....
But all you're really doing there is dissecting and giving various names to aspects that attempt to explain that HIGHER POWER.
Get out of your head, and into sobriety.
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also.... further to SCIENCE....
Here is a hypothesis; "Your continued efforts to moderate will consistently lead you to negative consequences and you have a lack of ability to control your drinking in any predictable way"
Experiement;
"I am now drinking today (4 Guinesses) and will probably go to the shop after for quarter vodka. I am already planning university tomorrow, I do not want to go but have to attend or I will not get my certificates if I miss one day of attendance. Therefore, I will probably drink in the lectures because I will be sweating and anxiety high after tonight"
How many times would you like to repeat the experiment before you accept your hypothesis as a theory?
Here is a hypothesis; "Your continued efforts to moderate will consistently lead you to negative consequences and you have a lack of ability to control your drinking in any predictable way"
Experiement;
"I am now drinking today (4 Guinesses) and will probably go to the shop after for quarter vodka. I am already planning university tomorrow, I do not want to go but have to attend or I will not get my certificates if I miss one day of attendance. Therefore, I will probably drink in the lectures because I will be sweating and anxiety high after tonight"
How many times would you like to repeat the experiment before you accept your hypothesis as a theory?
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Hi James
whatever your views on science and AA, whatever you're doing now isn't working for you if you're drinking again....
a good recovery plan may help:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ery-plans.html
D
whatever your views on science and AA, whatever you're doing now isn't working for you if you're drinking again....
a good recovery plan may help:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ery-plans.html
D
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I don't think you're thinking about this clearly. You drinking again has the potential to wreck everything you've been going to school for. The drinking could ruin your reputation, and career, much less getting your degree. Is drinking really worth sacrificing all that work, or having classmates remember you as the guy that was drunk in class?
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James, for what its worth, I have been accused (and guilty) of trying to out think my drinking. And the truth is I can't. I just try to remain vigilant and when tempted, I think back about some horrible things that have been caused by drinking. Lastly, and I've mentioned this before, but the fear and doom of withdrawal is a huge deterrent. Spending 48 hrs straight of being scared of your own shadow is no way to live life. I wish you well man.
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Yes I am trying to top and have almost stopped I have only had 4 cans today, last night I drank drove after vodka, cider, and Guinness around with my friends and could easily have killed someone or been pulled over, luckily I wasn't. And I was a person who said I'd never drink and drive, the only reasons I hadn't before was probably because I only just got a car. I went to rehab today and my mate said I absolutely reek of booze and I admitted in group that I cannot safely drink and my drinking days are behind me. I was hallucinating in the AA meeting tonight and had a Guinness down my side drawer when my passengers left I necked it and drove home.
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Ask your doctor about Antabuse. It blocks acetaldehyde metabolism, meaning one drink will send you to the ER or at least make you violently ill.
It prevents or significantly deters impulsive drinking, which is how most of us end up in your position. It doesn't cure alcoholism, but it does take the idea of moderation (which almost always fails) off the table.
It prevents or significantly deters impulsive drinking, which is how most of us end up in your position. It doesn't cure alcoholism, but it does take the idea of moderation (which almost always fails) off the table.
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Sometimes they're visual - ever seen an old movie where the old drunk is convinced he sees bugs all over him?
Never had those, but they can be sensory too - I've been convinced I was being attacked all over by ants more than once.
Sometimes they're auditory - I've heard people saying my name, snatches of songs. people talking in the next room...
None of it should be considered 'normal' and it's a sign you should seek medical help IMO
D
Never had those, but they can be sensory too - I've been convinced I was being attacked all over by ants more than once.
Sometimes they're auditory - I've heard people saying my name, snatches of songs. people talking in the next room...
None of it should be considered 'normal' and it's a sign you should seek medical help IMO
D
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