DayTrader

correction to my post.....they weren't RR guys, they were AVRT guys. My mistake.

fini

Jess,
you might get something/lots out of this thread, which speaks to exactly your question.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/3843895-post1.html

or maybe it's useless to you. congratulations on day two! and on showing up! with questions

if the thread is too involved for where you're at on day 2, maybe it will be of use some other time.

AVRT is not a program; it is a technique to help you deal with "the voice", or "the beast". it is one tool of many.
AA has a program to offer, which is something distinctly different from a tool.

my own experience is that i can incorporate a multitude of tools into any program, but i cannot do two programs simultaneously, as they are not complementary.

Dee74

RR is the programme, AVRT is the technique.
If I have that wrong someone will correct me

D

brynn

Thanks for posting that link, fini.
Xo

dwtbd

It's program

brynn

^^^

Carlotta

Thank you for posting the link Fini. For some reason it only showed the post so here is the link to the thread
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ys-thread.html
I really miss Robby and his insights
What I especially liked about him is that he always walked to his own drum.

fini

how are you doing, Jess?

FreeOwl

of course it is.

take whatever you find useful and empowering in your recovery. Don't let someone tell you "that won't work".... because everyone's recovery is different. There are some fundamentals, of course. There are experiences worth listening to and paying attention to....

But at the end of the day, if you feel that you'd like to draw tools from multiple toolkits, then DO IT.

Whatever helps you get and stay sober is valid.

FormerWineGirl

The tools in my toolbox are made by different manufacturers, but together they make up a set designed just for me ☺

jesshonesty

Thanks for all the input. I am still reading rational recovery the program and actually think the tool of AVRT makes sense with AA-- but this may sounds a little wacky-- OK. So if a higher power made us humans the way we are we have both a purely physical/animal self and a higher/human self that is beyond us mere mortals-- more spirtual/G-d like image. That we are supposed to have the challenge of overcoming our physical instincts to serve a higher purpose-- it is all part of the grander scheme we were put in the world to help make it better for each other and the whole. So yes the AV is a beast inside me, alcohol is it's weapon, but there is higher power that wants me to ignore it. Does this make sense to anyone?

Anyway I am going to one or two meetings at night instead of the day because I only have cravings at night-- I prefer to get out during day and hibernate at night but it is too risky. So I am taking "contrary action" and going to meetings at night. I have a new "sponsor" and calling her every day. I am still scared of drinking and don't trust myself.

Thank you all!!

PaulDaveSmithJo

When I was working through a number of different approaches, including Trimpey's books, Alan Carr's book, and a number of Albert Ellis', I came eventually to understand that - for me - the battle lines were ultimately drawn between my free will and alcohol; at the end of the day, one of these must win. The idea of a “beast” within which summoned me to negativity, I found helpful in the early going, but eventually I came to view the matter as a struggle of will(s). Plato, in his work “Phaedrus,” describes how the soul rides a chariot drawn by two horses - one of noble intent, the other of ignoble; the soul is constantly being pulled in opposite directions. Saint Paul has lamented his often doing what he wished not to do. Each of us is engaged is some struggle against an ignoble horse, against what we wish not to do.

Will power – I came to realize – is essentially useless unless it is well-informed of its object of intention. I came to realize that unless my will is informed, unless it has some well-formed reasoning for its goal - that it isn’t really will at all - it’s just a number of baseless and inchoate thoughts. This is where Carr's book was particularly helpful. This book permitted me to come to see alcohol for what it is - essentially a poison to which I had developed immunity over time, and which was destroying several facets of my well-being - biologically, psychologically, socially, monetarily, and spiritually. Thanks to Carr, I now had these conceptual munitions on the side of my will. In the words of John the Baptist:

The ax is already at the root of the trees,
and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire

Seeing alcohol as it actually is, was like an axe to the root of my unhealthy will, or to the reins of my ignoble horse.

In addition to the Rational approach, I also learned a fair bit from Buddhist psychology, particularly its thought on the nature of the self. In an early Buddhist text called “Dhammapada,” the Buddha said:

What we are today comes from our thoughts of yesterday
What we will be tomorrow is formed from our thoughts of today;
Our life is the creation of the mind

I used to believe that I was at the mercy of my thoughts, that my thoughts control my Self. Like a spectator sitting in a theatre watching any number of thoughts playing out on a screen, so I sat and watched anger, fear, hostility, and such things pass before my mind’s eye, and ultimately enter into and take hold of my Self. But eventually I realized that my Self could control my thoughts; I could invite positive ones in, and disallow the negative ones. I could change my Self through my thoughts, rather than allow my Self to be mastered and changed by my thoughts. The mind doesn’t control the self; the self controls the mind.

Ultimately, I found it more helpful to not force an inner dichotomy in my mind, but to see it instead as the same mind engaged in a struggle of wills. I found this somehow more cohesive as far as my understanding of the construction and essence of the self is concerned. And the battle of wills pretty much simply faded away once I had a clear understanding of what alcohol is.

FormerWineGirl

Well written, PDSJ, thanks for the post.

PaulDaveSmithJo

Thanks, FWG - happily, our toolboxes are not dissimilar in their diversity and eclecticism (euphemisms for "disorganized" - right?).

PaulDaveSmithJo

Please excuse me for getting a little - ok, a lot - off track in my post above.

As per your reference to "a more spiritual/G-d like image" - I think that is an important observation you've made. For example, in the creation story of Genesis, G-d says:

Let us make humankind in our image and likeness

If I understand the matter correctly, the image and likeness has to do with such things as truth, good, life, peace, and love - none of which can come out of a bottle; none whatsoever. Each of these characteristics lies inherent in the nature of the human person. Each of these is - at the very least - an inner-potential to which each of us has natural recourse.

If I had to state what it was I was hoping to achieve through using, I would have said something like an enhanced/heightened/deeper experience of being. But the effect of using was exactly the opposite; it was slowly eroding any sense of truth, good, life, and love that I could experience whatsoever. I felt utterly and totally estranged from life and all that is good.

I think that you're right, the higher power does indeed want you to ignore it (the beast), and to let speak through you the image and likeness in which you are made. The beast comes to kill and destroy; Truth comes so that you can have life, and have it abundantly.

jesshonesty

Thank you so much for this. You really clarified where I was going. I also loved where you "went off track" because I think you just took it to the logical place, that we are ONE-- underneath what appears to be "a struggle of wills." I have the Carr book and will give it another read because I need the knowledge that alcohol is poison to sink into my bones and consciousness. Any tips on how you are able to control your thoughts on a daily basis?

Thanks again!

PaulDaveSmithJo

Deleted.

Soberpotamus

Do what works for you.

I used elements from SMART, AVRT/RR, WFS, and AA. I also did a 20-day IOP (voluntarily), individual counseling, and I volunteered for a while at a women's shelter.

I think the thing that ensured my sobriety is that I had a desire to recover, to live sober, and to get on with my life. I made a choice to empower myself with many tools, multiple programs, and books.

It wasn't confusing for me to dabble in multiple programs. It was helpful.

Whatever works for you, go with it.

freshstart57

To clear up some apparent confusion, RR and AVRT do not counsel ignoring the urge to drink. Instead, as the acronym says, the Addictive or Alcoholic Voice is Recognized and accepted as being the remnant of a long period of conditioning to alcohol consumption. The AV is a mindless response from our lower brain function. It is overcome through rational awareness and recognition, and then separation, not inattention. Through this process, it is rendered powerless to control behaviour, not the individual.

There is much more discussion on RR and AVRT, as well as other cognitive self-directed and evidence-based tools to overcome addiction, in our Secular Connections forum. There is a lot of support there, too!

freshstart57

Carr explained to me how pervasive the AV is throughout western society and media, how much a part of our culture it has become. This helped me a lot with its recognition.

Now as for throught control? I don't know how to do that, but I don't see that as part of my sobriety. I came to understand that my thoughts come and go, and I don't really have control over them. I do have control over how I allow them to affect me, and how I choose to react to them. This comes from a mindful awareness of them, developing the ability to observe them with detachment.

When the urge to drink comes, I identify it not as something I want, but as something I used to want, and what I am hearing is that old response that says a drink would be a good idea. I know it is not a good idea.

I know that I am no longer the source of that thought simply because long ago I made the decision to quit drinking for good. That's it.