chrcarlson

Sarai, really sorry to hear about the creeps. It's as wrong as wrong can be. I guess you have been to several meetings. I'm new to AA. I'm 53 year old man and have had people hug me- I'm not pretty though. Maybe a few of them didn't mean anything by it. Still too many of them sound like they did. I'm real sorry life is full of SOB's and I guess AA is no different. Glad you shared, if I see it happen where I go I'll do something about it.

Carlotta

AA women meetings and also if you are in a big city, check out Women For Sobriety.

Berrybean

I'm getting from this that its' not that you feel threatened as such by how other people act, but just want them to act different. I feel the same sometimes - but funnily enough, people's crass behaviour never deterred me from going to bars and pubs in order to get drunk. If I want to stay sober, I personally need to be more accepting of other people - and accepting isn't condoning. It's just a way of staying unaffected by them so that I can focus on my actions and my sobriety and not get angry, resentful or sidetracked. This helps me adjust my focus (every day)....

God, help me to accept that people may be unreasonable and self-centred. Let me forgive them anyway.
Help me to accept that if I’m kind, people may accuse me of ulterior motives. Let me be kind anyway.
Help me to accept that if I find happiness, people may be jealous. Let me be happy anyway.
Help me to accept that the good I do today may be forgotten tomorrow. Let me do good anyway.
Help me to accept that I may give the world my best, and it may never be good enough. Let me give my best anyway.
God, help me to remember that it is between you and me. It was never between me and them anyway.


I'd suggest sticking to the womens' only meetings for now, and bringing it up as a share there and see what others say. If you don't have a sponsor, then get one. Chances are, as you work through the steps you'll find this stuff easier.

From what people say, 13th stepping can be an issue in some places, but I don't think that what happened last night was 13th stepping. Predators are usually a lot more subtle than that. The guy hugging as he gave out chips - likelyhood is that he'd have hugged a man as well as a woman if they went and got a chip. Next time you're due a chip, tell the secretary at the start that you're uncomfortable with being hugged, and hold your hand out for a handshake, standing back, instead. Yeah - the idiot man shouted out. He behaved badly, and you could talk to the secretary about how that made you feel so they can have a word with him. Those idiots are everywhere, not just at AA meetings, and just because people are in AA they don't suddenly all behave better than any cross section of society. I bet there were a lot of people there who did treat you kindly and respectfully - they're the ones to stick with.

3arai

beccy i'm not sure what you're getting at.
i absolutely feel threatened by the way numerous men have acted towards me at meetings. i gave just one example, i'm not going to type them all out so you can further dismiss my concerns. i feel gross even walking in there so these guys can perv on me. there are numerous couples that attend meetings together and are very open that they met in aa at that exact meeting!

i don't feel it's a safe environment.

And i never said that guy was 13th stepping....I don't like going to a meeting that is supposed to help me so i can be the brunt of a joke. disgusting!!!! as soon as that happened all i could think was, I'm not going to speak at this meeting.

it makes me sick that there is even this nckname "13th steppers' for sexual predators at aa meetings. obviously it's pretty widespread.

i do "stick to" the women who are nice to me. Apparently they are also cool with all this so idk what's up with that.

i'm not sure what you mean- i don't care about what the people at meetings do in their personal lives.
of course it is highly distressing to me and of course I want it to stop. I absolutely feel threatened by it and i can't imagine what made you think differently. apparently there is nothing i can do except be cool with it or leave. really I'm baffled by the "just chill out" attitude towards harassment at a support group.

and yes i have a sponsor, i am pretty sure that's in an earlier post.

3arai

this same man already made a "joke" toward me, in front of my sponsor and numerous other women, about "sitting on santa's lap" (it was an xmas meeting). there is also a very attractive 20-something woman at meetings who he refers to as his "girlfriend"

the meetings are supposed to be good for my emotional well-being, not cause me anxiety.

chrcarlson

3arai, If you go back to the meeting it would be nice of you to speak with the new girl. Maybe if there are enough women tired of it you can form your won group or enhance the woman's group you typed earlier.

If you decide never to return to that meeting maybe you should send them a letter explaining why. Evidently these oafs are unaware of their destructive behaviors. I think some of it may be unintended but I totally agree that "Santa" is way out of line. I know I shouldn't say/think this but I'm new to recovery and from Texas. Sounds like he needs corporal punishment

biminiblue

There are a lot of people in the world who have poor social skills. I run into them in stores, at church, in classes, at work, in AA meetings, in parking lots, on the street.

I'm guessing you have had to deflect attention from men all your life, unless you are a hermit? I have to say that AA meetings are a pretty safe place to practice deflecting politely and also a safe place to become comfortable with your own boundaries. The other women know these guys and the other men do, too. Your discomfort will not go unnoticed, but you have to speak up. Yes, there are pervy guys in AA. They are everywhere. Maybe you've noticed.

Why not start standing up for yourself? I get it, I don't like being hit on, either. In AA meetings, if a man tried to hug me I stopped him by saying, "I'm not comfortable with hugging."AA people don't always have the best social skills, I mean it's a room full of ex-drunks. I even made sure in coed meetings that I didn't stand next to certain men in the prayer circle at the end. I can spot a pervy guy from 50 paces and I'm sure you can, too.

For the record, I don't go to AA meetings any more, and this particular behavior is really annoying, but it is stoppable. No one pushed it past the initial attempt - if I shut it down. You are not helpless!

3arai

She's not new just young. She's been going to the same meeting for 5 years.

I wasn't attending meetings to get better at dodging creeps.

These comments are very similar to what the women at the meetings say. that these guys just have poor social skills, deal with it better, etc.

i feel like I have to continually repeat my point; the entire culture and environment in the rooms does not lend itself to being any kind of therapeutic environment, for me. I was looking for help with my drinking in a group environment.

none of that make this ok. And fwiw, I feel significantly more uncomfortable at meetings with creeps than in any of those situations. these are small environments where I'm expected to listen to other people and also share about myself. I went into these meetings with a lot of trust and hope so maybe that was my mistake.

biminiblue

I just think that you are having expectations that are unrealistic. People are going to be annoying. It is your right to tell them what kind of behavior is acceptable to you. Touching is never okay unless it's agreeable to all parties. Any unwanted remarks should be dealt with at the time.

You can only change you. Thinking that others should naturally know how you want to be treated is a mistake on your part. Guys are going to hit on women, it's a fact of life. Some women are going to take them up on it, also a fact of life. Some women are going to say. "Get lost. " For the record, I've seen women displaying predatory behavior in the rooms, too.

I understand the sort of shock at running into this in a supposedly therapeutic place because I had the same experience at first, but really it's just a place that welcomes everyone who wants to quit drinking and there are no rules other than the rules/boundaries you set for yourself.

Berrybean

I think this is what I picked up on...

If I'm in a situation where I know that I can stick up for myself then I tend to not class that as somewhere I feel in danger as such.

I was referring only to the incident you wrote about in your post because I thought that this was a different meeting to the one you went to before. Sorry if that isn't the case.

What does you sponsor say about it all?

biminiblue

You know, Beccy is one of the most helpful, kind women on this site. Sarai, I understand that you have a massive resentment against AA right now, and I get it - I do, but Beccy has been straight with you, as have I and others in this thread. Sometimes people say things to me that get under my skin and usually in hindsight when I'm not triggered I can see it as good, sound logical thinking. In the moment, it doesn't always feel that way.

What do you think is the solution to the AA men problem? Obviously, not going back is one choice, and a perfectly valid one if you feel your sobriety is safe.

One of the good things about groups is that people tell it like it is. Online, in AA, in group therapy, etc. Some of the things are not what I want to hear, but what I need to hear. I'm glad you're here and I hope you keep talking, and that you don't let this lead you back to drinking.

Andante

Learning to live life on life's terms instead of expecting that I can force it to conform to my desires and protect me from my fears has been one of the most crucial lessons of my recovery.

Coldfusion

The problem of sexual predation at meetings has been controversial. At the Area level (the area that includes Seattle), attempts to get a brochure produced have usually met with resistance. At the most recent Area Assembly Meeting , there was a floor motion to produce a pamphlet on safety in AA and sexual predators. The motion was referred to the District Quarterlies.

Duffster

Actually, this was the subject of a recently re-aired 48 Episode. Google The Sober Truth 48 hours -- it's really a side of AA that never occurred to me -- that there really are male predators (and I'm sure vice versa) preying on vulnerable women. There is a law suit currently pending against AA.

It seems to me that it would be a good idea to attend women-only meetings for a while. That is what I choose to do.

biminiblue

Yeah, coldfusion, I'm in the Seattle area. There is definitely sexual predation by both men and women in the rooms. It's tough on vulnerable newcomers, but I know that in my groups if I said back off, the guys did - and the other longer-term men and women would back me up, and would stand with me against any further behavior along those lines.

I think that unless and until a woman (or man) says to stop, then anything goes. I've had the same behaviors at work, at bars, at the grocery store, at the gas station, at the laundromat, etc. It's life in the big city in present day America, unfortunately.

Lots of women new to AA are suffering from sexual trauma, and it doesn't feel like a safe place when you are newly sober. More time in the rooms helps, and more sober time helps.

Anna

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chrcarlson

Drank for over 30 year's. Spent 6 years continuously in Iraq, not combat arms not a fobbit either. I eventually enjoyed the incoming impacts (explosions), still miss them sometimes. I'm not exactly a creampuff.

I went to my first AA meeting 29 days ago. I was/felt very vulnerable. Wide eyed and scared. It took me a few meetings before I learned how and who to avoid. That being said I find AA very helpful.

My point: When someone is new to the bunker they look to others for reassurance, it's hard to be joking and smoking when you aren't use to things a blowing up.

3arai, The ladies are right. AA appears to me to be like any other group of people. Most are very nice, some kinda neutral and a few bad. I'm not female but I deal with it like any other group.

Wishing you the Best
Chris

3arai

chris-
i'm done with aa. no thanks to your advice.

ALinNS

Have you thought of a plan B to replace these meetings? There are other support groups for those recovering as well that may help you, we just want to do whatever we can to help you stay sober

3arai

thank you al
yes I have. my emotional and physical health are extremely important to me. that is why i was attending meetings in the first place and also started this thread to ask for help. I am researching more scientific and logic-based programs and i like one in particular.