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Taoism and AA

Old 07-03-2015, 05:06 PM
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I was just reading a book by the noted American pro basketball coach and "Zen master" Phil Jackson. In it, he chronicles how his own intensive spiritual studies led to storied success for his championship pro basketball teams. Although his approach was mostly a synthesis of Zen Buddhism and Native American ideas, I was continually reminded of 12-Step principles as I read the book.

On the face of it, coaching a pro basketball team to a championship and coming up with a successful program for alcoholism recovery wouldn’t seem to have much in common, but underneath, the similarities abound. Only goes to support the idea that certain aspects of the human experience are transcendent and universal.
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Old 07-03-2015, 06:58 PM
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There are so many wise posts on this thread that all I can say is that I am heartily in agreement. Alcoholism, with its developing and progressive slavery of the body to a substance, with its increasing dominance of the AV over the more rational parts of the brain, virtually rules out any chance of developing what has been called "wisdom". And when recovery begins, the search for wisdom can gradually resume. Despite 27 years of sobriety I cannot profess to be "wise". Who can? Yet I can say this: that happiness can best be found in moderation, one thing at a time, one day at a time, setting priorities, no longer sweating the small stuff, not trying to change the big stuff which can't be changed, ridding oneself of dependence on what people may think, on money, power, possessions (Tao's "ten thousand things"), on people or places, seeking understanding and forgiveness, not only of others but of oneself. The list goes on and on. It has been there for centuries. But, as the half mad poet Blake, said, "Wisdom is sold in that desolate market place where none come to buy." Wrong, perhaps. A few do come to buy. But all too few in these troubled, indeed toxic, times in which we live.
Call it "happiness". Some call it "spiritual" but if others are turned off by this, just call it "happiness". Before I "coped" with stuff by drinking. Now I'm not drinking and I can really cope.

W.
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Purpleknight View Post
I love how many of the struggles that we have today, power, acceptance, wealth, politics, where the same topics that were up for discussion back then, the methods have changed through technology etc but the basic questions of being a human and existing in society are similar.

Back to the original assertion, the principles of AA being similar to other wisdom, it may be simply that the human condition has now been unchanged for centuries, and philosophers have stumbled across the same conclusions!!
I have heard some of our elder statesman in AA sign off on many, many character defects as being inherently unique to alcoholics. "you do xyz because you're and alcoholic!"

I don't argue that there are common traits in most alcoholics - selfishness is one I contend.

But, there are many shortcomings in non alcoholics as well as alcoholics. This is simply part of the human condition. Lie, cheat, steal, greed, lust etc. The 7 deadly sins were not invented nor do AA members have the market cornered on these, imo.

What is indeed different for us in recovery is we get unique opportunity/perspective to address these "flaws" and perhaps evolve/change them. Procrastination, fear, selfishness to name a few.

Love abides - compassion abides - truth abides
I have read somewhere and agree with those sentiments!

Great Thread W
Nice post pk.....
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Old 07-04-2015, 04:24 AM
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This matter of character "defects". Is it not possible, even likely, that these character defects are a result of drinking? That people are not alcoholics because they are "bad"(the old time traditional judgemental view) but that they are "bad" because of the alcohol? How many "bad" people are not alcoholics? A lot! When people drink and when they become alcoholics, then because of their dependency they lie, become selfish, even cheat or steal. Their bodies and their brains have changed.They can do something about this. They can get themselves into recovery.

W.
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Old 07-04-2015, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wpainterw View Post
This matter of character "defects". Is it not possible, even likely, that these character defects are a result of drinking? That people are not alcoholics because they are "bad"(the old time traditional judgemental view) but that they are "bad" because of the alcohol? How many "bad" people are not alcoholics? A lot! When people drink and when they become alcoholics, then because of their dependency they lie, become selfish, even cheat or steal. Their bodies and their brains have changed.They can do something about this. They can get themselves into recovery.

W.
I stole, lied, cheated and was selfish long before I drank. So there were definitely moral issues prior to alcohol. These are human frailties and just part of the human condition to different degrees. In alcoholics I believe they are extreme though. And I believe these issue may manifest themselves prior to drinking a drop.

I am of the school today that I was an alcoholic long before I took my first drink. I subscribe to alcoholism as a disease that comes about when alcoholics drink and cross that line of no return = frequency, amount of consumption being part of this. For me it's like that cancer cell(s) that always been there in certain types and something sets it off.

Again, this is where I am at today and do not defend this position vigorously. I am just satisfied that's where I am at, but respect others thoughts on the subject.
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Old 07-04-2015, 09:17 AM
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Flynbuy:
That's great! The important thing is not drinking. What one thinks about it isn't anywhere near as important as not drinking. When I didn't drink eventually everything started to come back to where it should have been in the first place. That's what mattered. Every good wish to you.

W.
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Old 09-11-2015, 02:27 PM
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P.S. Does anyone out there know of a good chatroom, either on SoberRecovery or elsewhere on Taoism? I'm ill in bed with a muscle bruise I got in a Fall and would like to chat about the Tao, going with the flow, etc. Any suggestions out there? If I start a new thread and put it other than in Newcomers, would it get very few responses? Of course a true believer in the Tao would say nothing, since "where everything is spoken then nothing will be said..." (Big Chinese Joke. Ha! Ha!). I've already found a site on the Spirituality Forum in a thread which discusses The Universe, Accident or Design. I posted on there if you're interested. Do you agree with Heidegger that "Nothing" may still be "Something"? (No I haven't been drinking to suggest that. Was Heidegger a bit tipsy?)

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Old 09-11-2015, 05:26 PM
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Hi Bill - I got lots of hits simply by putting 'taoism forum' into Google.

That way you can look at them all and decide which is best for you?

D
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Old 09-11-2015, 07:31 PM
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Such interesting comments on this thread...

I read Tao Te Ching way back when and remember being impressed. I didn't really think about it until I began this recovery journey though. I've recently taken up 'yin yoga'. It supposedly is based on Taoism and involves*long* asanas (postures) and guided meditation. It's wonderful.

There are so many Lao Tzu quotes I love, and it seems many could definitely apply to recovery. Just one: "When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be".
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Old 09-12-2015, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Dee74 View Post
Hi Bill - I got lots of hits simply by putting 'taoism forum' into Google.

That way you can look at them all and decide which is best for you?

D
Thanks Dee. Hope you are coming along well. Getting older sure does require patience. The Tao says, "Do it bit by bit and it all gets done." Weaving the intricate and beautiful rug of life. Every good wish.

Bill.
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Old 09-12-2015, 10:05 AM
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I really enjoyed reading this thread! Think I'll have to start studying up on Taoism. Thanks guys!
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