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Why does alcoholism "progress" even in sobriety ?

Old 06-29-2015, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tomsteve View Post
I know a man who had over 20 years sober that went back out. Only out for a month, I was very glad to see him back at an AA meeting. Something I don't want to forget hearing him say: I didn't pick up where I left off. It was as if I never stopped. Why it's like that I don't know. But I believe it and accept it.
Many years ago I read, or heard, that if you relapse you pick up where you left of but, quickly progress to where you would be as if you never stopped. Anyway you look at it, it's scary stuff!
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Old 06-29-2015, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
This concept baffles me. Although, from first hand knowledge, I know it to be true.

Any ideas as to why ? I understand the brain is indelibly changed from abuse, but how does it actually continue to "get worse" even though we are abstinent ?

Thanks in advance.
I don't believe it does progress in sobriety. This idea is a fallacy IMO.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:04 PM
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I was reading something about this recently and I think it was over at The Fix. Someone asked this question to one of the doctors where you submit questions. The answer was its not true. The brain actually begins to heal when people stop, but can take up to several years. (Im sure it depends on the severity of addiction and personal chemistry). My guess is this idea got started because people would relapse back quickly before the brain healed. It hasnt been too many years since we have begun to understand how the brain is affected, or how it heals.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
This concept baffles me. Although, from first hand knowledge, I know it to be true.

Any ideas as to why ? I understand the brain is indelibly changed from abuse, but how does it actually continue to "get worse" even though we are abstinent ?

Thanks in advance.
This concerns me.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:20 PM
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It was true for me too... Six months of sobriety yielded me a harder-than-ever return to the madness.

I think part of it was a false sense of invulnerability from telling myself I was 'better' now that I'd had a break, partly ignorance and belief that I was someone 'different' than all 'those other people who progressed in alcoholism', partly my AV going absolutely wild to play catch-up for being reigned in for six months.
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:33 PM
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I imagine its a bit like bike riding. Your brain cells just don't forget and pick it up fast.

Scientists discover why we never forget how to ride a bicycle
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
This is a great explanation. Thank you Bim !
That is such an amazing explanation. I never really understood WHY I was addicted until I read this. I'm the kinda person that needs to know WHY. Thank you!
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Old 06-29-2015, 02:54 PM
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My experience is that as your body gets better the physical tolerance to alcohol reduces.But the desire to drink doesn't.

If you remember what you used to drink and consider what would happen to a new drinker if they drank the same... well... you'll be the new drinker.

Plus as you get older it takes longer to heal as well,so your body will suffer more than it did when you gave up.
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by thomas11 View Post
This concerns me.
?
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Old 06-29-2015, 03:46 PM
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I think it's the addiction in general more than the alcohol.

I quit smoking for seven years. Hated the smell and all. Then one night I was drinking and told a friend to give me one. I could handle just one or two while drinking right? Ended up smoking his whole pack and bought another as soon as I got up the next day. Just like I had never quit I was right back at it. Still smoking now 11 years later. I hope I never forget that lesson.
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Old 06-29-2015, 04:01 PM
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From my experience, whenever I had a decent amount of time sober and went back to drinking, I found my drinking was heavier faster and more destructive than it had ever been before.

I don't know whether my alcoholism was progressing or I was just 'making up for lost time'.

I do know that as long as I stay sober I never have to worry about this

D
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:36 PM
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That's a great question. I'm not sure it progresses, but I've always hit the bottle harder every time I went back after lots of sober time. Ten years down the line after some major healing? Who knows. My guess the same kind of abuse. This things ingrained in me. Don't want to find out. Good thread. Interesting thoughts. 👍
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
?
It concerns me that it can actually get worse, or more dangerous after stretches of sobriety. Meaning if I drink again in the future, it could be bad or worse than before. That concerns me. That's what I meant.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sg1970 View Post
I think it's the addiction in general more than the alcohol.

I quit smoking for seven years. Hated the smell and all. Then one night I was drinking and told a friend to give me one. I could handle just one or two while drinking right? Ended up smoking his whole pack and bought another as soon as I got up the next day. Just like I had never quit I was right back at it. Still smoking now 11 years later. I hope I never forget that lesson.
This was my experience as well...The trick is to never light up that first cigarette ever, no matter what..it is over 6 years quitting the cigarettes now and I do not need to learn that lesson again...
I feel alcohol has to be the same...just do not take that first drink. ...I believe that our brain heals but once we reopen that Pandora's box it doesn't take long to get back to where we were or worse and sadly for some there is not even hope.
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:56 PM
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The first time I heard the word "plasticity" was from my father in law, and I was like what? ha! but he explained it to me and then it made a whole lot of sense. The article on riding the bike reminded me of it.

This little article is pretty good I think:

Neuroplasticity and Addiction Recovery
by*Constance Scharff Ph.D.*(*Ending Addiction for Good)


We used to think that the brain, once damaged, could not repair itself. Breakthroughs in*neuroscience*have shown that this is not true.

Though individual neurons might be damaged beyond repair, the brain attempts to heal itself when damaged by making new connections or new neural pathways as work-arounds for the damage. This is called neuroplasticity, *neuro (brain/nerve/neuron) and plasticity (moldability).

What does neuroplasticity mean for*addiction*treatment?

When we develop a habit, the brain creates a path in itself in support of that habit. As we engage in the habit over and over again, the pathway becomes well-worn or stronger. This is similar to lifting a weight. If you lift a weight over and over, the muscle will get stronger. In many ways, addiction can be explained as a neuroplastic event. The brain gets trained to do a particular behavior – use*drugs*oralcohol*or gambling – eventually to the exclusion of all else.* BUT, in treatment, we can retrain the brain, that is develop a new pathway that supports recovery. With intensive*psychotherapy*and other holistic interventions, we strengthen the new “recovery” loop within the brain. The brain then learns to enjoy recovery, those things that give us pleasure in our sober lives – family, work, interpersonal interactions. We retrain the brain and thus change our lives.

How does the brain’s function have a role in relapse?

Essentially, in addiction, the pleasure centers of the brain are hijacked by the addiction. Eventually, it is only the addictive behavior that brings the addict any sense of joy, or at least freedom from pain. This is not only a biochemical process; drugs themselves affect the brain’s biochemistry, but also a process of habit. The addict’s brain becomes accustomed to the addictive act being the source of pleasure – not family, friends, a good meal, or a job well done. We can retrain the brain and we can rebalance the addict’s biochemistry, BUT, the old neuropathways, the old links between addiction and pleasure are still there. This is why we suggest complete abstinence from drugs and alcohol to addicts. It doesn’t take much to jump start the old habit.

For example, you may not have been to your college campus in twenty years, but within minutes of arrival for a visit, it will become familiar to you – your old haunts, how to get around, etc. Addiction is no different. Recovery doesn’t remove the addictive thought process; it just gives the addict an opportunity to change behaviors.

What then is interpersonal neurobiology?

The term was coined by Dr. Dan Siegel of UCLA.* It is a transdisciplinary approach to*understanding*how the brain works – weaving together understandings of why we behave as we do from fields as varied as anthropology, computer science, and psychology. Interpersonal neurobiology helps us to understand two things – first, how the brain actively works toward something called “integration” and second that the brain is developed to grow and heal itself in relationship to others.

Integration means*health*and wholeness. The brain wants all its disparate parts to work together. It is designed for you to feel whole and happy. In recovery, we help the brain reach that goal with whole health support.

Relationship also plays a significant role in mental health. Those who are isolated do not recover as well as those who have a loving support system in place. This is not just an intuitive deduction about mental health – there are many studies in neuroscience, the science of touch and psychology that support this claim. Thus, to help the brain develop healthy neuro-pathways and to foster recovery, we help the addict build this interpersonal support system both in treatment and beyond.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:06 PM
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I really wish I could gain some "moderation powers" after X amount of time without a drink, but now I see that is not what happens, in my experience what happens is after not drinking for a long time it takes much less alcohol to get buzzed or drunk at first, but keep drinking and some days/weeks after you are back to where you were when you stopped.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:23 PM
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This is something that isn't even remotely close to being proven or scientific. It's really just anecdotal and passed down, so to speak. As others have pointed out, it does not make any logical sense for a number of reasons. But odds are if you were addicted before, and you start up again, you will be addicted again. "Worse" is such a subjective term, I'm not even sure how someone would quantify that.

It seems pretty clear that time off from drinking doesn't magically transform you back into a moderate drinker, but that's about as far as I would go.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:25 PM
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For me it has taken a lot of work to teach my inner child that lasting happiness comes from trying to be the best person I can be. Alcohol rewards me for doing absolutely nothing to better myself. When you give yourself a reward for destroying your life why would you care if you destroy your life? For me each relapse just reinforces the false idea that I don't need to work hard to feel "good". Sorry if this is off but it is how it works for me.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
I haven't had a drink in almost four years. It doesn't seem reasonable to think that I am a worse drunk now or that my addiction to alcohol has progressed in any way since August 2011. It doesn't even seem rational.

If this is true, I will be in really tough shape after a decade or two of sobriety.
Is it rational or medical to believe that the receptors in your brain from past alcohol abuse could still be solid enough to cause a severe relapse depending on where you left off when you where drinking? Rational no, but medical, I don't know. To me, it doesn't sound like your a worse drunk, just the same as where you were when you were drinking,, but would start there if you started drinking again, thus progressing the problem, if that makes sense. So, the idea that alcoholism is a progressive problem makes sense, if you continue to drink. John
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Old 06-30-2015, 04:21 AM
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Originally Posted by thomas11 View Post
It concerns me that it can actually get worse, or more dangerous after stretches of sobriety. Meaning if I drink again in the future, it could be bad or worse than before. That concerns me. That's what I meant.
I think that's a healthy concern. But the great fact is you have the power and choice to not allow it to happen.
Remember: IF you drink again.
So don't drink today.
I had a pretty bad craving one day. Called my sponsor. He said just don't drink today. If ya want to drink tomorrow, call me first.
Tomorrow came and I wanted to drink. Called him.
"so, ya said if I want to drink tomorrow call ya first. So I'm callin.
" right. So, it's today. Just don't drink today. If ya want to drink tomorrow, call me first."

ODAAT, Thomas. It's all we have.
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