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Therapist just told me AA or the highway.

Old 02-26-2015, 08:55 PM
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((((AO))). She doesn't know any better. Mine did the same to me back in what? 1980? I quit drinking for a few years after that. I did go to AA again after the call but it didn't change for me. I wish RR was around then and that she knew about it.

I'm sorry. I wish something was taught in school about RR or at least suggested reading. I hope psychology catches up some day soon.

How can we help? I know this situation with your mom is so hard.

Please don't let the AV get to you.

Love from Lenina
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Old 02-26-2015, 08:56 PM
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Your therapist does not sound very compassionate. I guess she may have a different approach of helping you? I currently go to therapy and she has never demanded that I go to AA. I have tried AA in the past and I felt that personally it wasn't for me. My therapist understood that and said AA is not for everyone. She provided me with other coping skills and resources for my sobriety and other issues. In my opinion that is what a therapist should do. Help guide you through this crazy journey and transition rather than demand you take one path and only this one path.
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Old 02-26-2015, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by EndGameNYC View Post
Hi alpha. I'm very sorry for your troubles.

I don't generally comment on other therapists' work unless there appears to be imminent danger for the patient or I otherwise have a good reason to do so, and especially when I have very little context to work with.

Your comments from the post I quoted indicate to me, among much else, that you have a strong attachment to your therapist. Otherwise, your anger at her recommendations would be much less intense. I'm also thinking that people don't contact their therapists after a period of separation if something meaningful didn't occur in their previous work. You contacted her for a reason or reasons, some part or parts of which you may not be fully aware. I'll leave that part at that.

As for the section I typed in bold, none of those conditions you mention, alone or together, is nearly as lethal as your addiction. Your addiction can very directly kill you, and it's possible that you could take someone with you in the process.

From another post, you stated that it's the therapist's job to meet the patient where she is. I won't debate this in terms of priorities on the part of the therapist, except to say that our most prominent concern is or should be the safety of the patient, right up there with the therapist surviving the treatment intact. Also, it seems that you and your therapist differ as to "where you are" at the moment, and as others have suggested, it would be a good thing for both of you to discuss this in person.

You're in one of those awful cycles in which it seems as though everything is going against you, and you likely feel under attack by your own feelings at times, maybe most times. I know what that's like, and my heart goes out to you.
Thanks for this.
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Old 02-26-2015, 10:03 PM
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EGNYC,

Thanks for this post. If I may I'd like to thank you. I was very annoyed at my therapist but not enraged. I never thought I had a life and death condition *at that time*, I came to learn I did. I had to suffer a bit more to fully appreciate I was gonna die if I continued on. I did stop as I said for a few years but that was only to keep from going to AA which, having attended a few meetings I knew wasn't for me. I was sicker and needed much more help.

Of course, in an emergency we must access the problem: the most dire symptom, the most lethal was the alcohol. AOs therapist knew this but seems clumsy in the application of the tourniquet, it seems to me.

I would really hate to rehash my history. It's long, complicated and I am tired of discussing the points most therapists I've seen find the more interesting or maybe the easiest to treat. I don't know the answers here. But I do wish more therapists could recommend rational recovery. It was what made total sense to me. Could be I had to get to the point it made sense....addiction is tricky like that.

While the active addiction behaviors are in abeyance, could the root cause be treated? I don't know, I have no training. I do know now that I drank because I wanted to, I wanted the deep pleasure alcohol very temporarily gives. To feed the Beast. I had to learn about the Addictive Voice and all of its tricks.

But honestly, if AA had been my only choice? I'd be dead now. I hope clinicians will learn more about our disease. At least enough to refer and to where.

Love from Lenina
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:13 PM
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Thank you, Lenina, for your heartfelt words.

I did, however, get a good laugh from this part of your comments:

Originally Posted by Lenina View Post
I was very annoyed at my therapist but not enraged. I never thought I had a life and death condition *at that time*, I came to learn I did. I had to suffer a bit more to fully appreciate I was gonna die if I continued on. I did stop as I said for a few years but that was only to keep from going to AA...
Imagine that! Someone getting sober in order to avoid AA!. It's a beautiful thing.
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Old 02-26-2015, 11:50 PM
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EGNYC, yes, it's pretty funny! But it did stop the immediate danger to me! So, AA does work. LOL. I wasn't in denial, I knew. I always knew. My addictive voice was just too loud for AA. I've always said AA is a good program. It helps a lot to get ones life back in order. Working the Steps is very useful. I needed a little more to defeat the addiction.

Today, I am mostly peaceful and I am truly sober. I had some competent therapy and made use of the tools. I've been through some bad times sober. I had a lot to deal with but I made it through the last over seven years sober!

AO, sorry to derail your thread. I hope you wake up and feel a bit better. See if you can find a referral from the social services at the hospital specific to this crisis and get some short term help until you can find a more qualified therapist. Stay sober. I really recommend rereading the Rational Recovery book and web pages. You can do this.

Do not let the addictive voice BS you!

Love from Lenina
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Old 02-27-2015, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
Hang on. I Got a little more to get off my chest before I lay me down to sleep. .
(And thanks, in advance, for letting me rant.

You know, it chaps my hide that she interprets my addiction as the single most defining aspect of my life.
I mean, if that's it, just that, why not pull up the PTSD and simply demand I get over that too ?
Or the lifelong anxiety and Agorophobia ?
Or my codependency towards my mother (aka unconditional love).
Or the fact that I'm one hell of a mother raising a child that has been offered full rides to 5 colleges.
Or that I gainfully employ 12 people.
Or that I'm walking with my husband through his own failures.
Or holding my best friends hand through her cancer.

Those aspects are just as much a part of me as this GD addiction is.

I am more than this alcoholism. Far more.

Shame on her for shoving me in that box, labeling it "Addict", and shelving it.

Screw that. This is absolutely ridiculous. She's the failure because she gave up.

I'm still fighting.
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Old 02-27-2015, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
I am more than this alcoholism. Far more.
I don't know you so take this as just was it is. The opinion and experience of a sober alcoholic.

Yes. What you say is true. Unfortunately, for me and most people that I've known to recover from this, the alcoholic part easily encompasses and overshadows all those other things we are.

If you are indeed an alcoholic, and drank like I did, there's far more to the "disease" than simply putting the drink down. Putting the drink down for most alcoholics kicks the sickness into high gear. Without doing something very proactive to heal that, it only makes for a very resentful, angry, uncomfortable, unhappy person.

As someone else stated, it took me a year of recovery, meetings, therapy, group therapy, 12 steps, and whole bunch of other stuff, before I started to wake up a bit. I too was agoraphobic, full blown, and at a year sober still couldn't get more than 30 miles from my house without freaking out. It took me 2 years to be able to function "normally" in the world again. And then the gifts of sobriety started flowing in. I started to enjoy some peace of mind, and become a truly productive, giving, and loving person.

If early on I had done only the things I felt comfortable doing, none of that would have ever come. If I hadn't listened to others and done things that seemed to cut COMPLETELY AGAINST MY GRAIN, I wouldn't be sitting here typing this 30 sober year later. Of that I'm certain.

I see and hear so many people who want a different life for themselves, yet don't want to do anything differently. You say you're open to AA in the future, but not now? Does that mean you're open to doing something that might help you somewhere down the line, but not now? I get that, but anytime I ever said something like that I was BSing myself. I'm in fact doing it right now with a different not so life threatening issue in my life, going back to school. The only way I'm going to do it is if I do it, and I'm actually going to use this as motivation .

Alcoholism is a life or death thing. For me anyway. I knew that the day I got sober and I was fortunate enough to have a sponsor that reminded me regularly when I was feeling better, that that fact would never change. When sobriety is firmly in place for me, at the very top of my priority list, all else begins to fall into place. All else has a space in which it can heal.

AA doesn't have to be your solution. It's a solution I'm certain works, because it did for me and lots of others I know, but there are alternatives. I believe completely that it's crucial to find some sort of treatment. I heard someone say recently that she was an alcoholic. When she put the alcohol down all she was left with was the ic (ick). I think that sums it up wonderfully.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, I'm just putting out my honest opinion which is based on many years experience with this disease. You've got the first part, and congrats on the 2 months. Don't let the 2nd part of this disease get the better of you.

I'd seriously consider what your therapist is saying. I don't really see any reason not to. How could/or would that hurt you? If not then I'd move on immediately and find something else that WILL help you.
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Old 02-27-2015, 03:22 AM
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"Is there REALLY only a one size fits all approach to sobriety ?"

Of course not and proven here.
What I've seen in the people here who have achieved sobriety, no mater what method, is footwork was put in to change.
And also proven here that doing nothing doesn't work.
Working with another alcoholic can become frustrating. It's not the easiest thing to listen to someone not putting in any footwork to change, not using the suggestions given, and doing the same thing over and over thinking the results will be different.
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Old 02-27-2015, 05:09 AM
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I has brunch with a 12 step friend not too long ago. She pointed out to me that AA provides a fellowship. People who instantly get you and can empathize. Where we live there is quite a community. She said, how much farther would your H be emotionally if he had allowed AA in his tool box? Because alcoholism can be viewed as an emotional regulation issue and the best way to learn about yourself and new ways to behave and respond is with people.

One of your previous posts notes serious codependency issues and that you are were born with fetal alcohol issues. You've been primarily posting in Newcomers for 4 years. I think your anger is denial that your therapist is speaking a hard truth to you. She knows your life story and your troubles likely better than anyone on this board. But you want to heap a whole lot of angst on her - ' How dare she say such a thing because I'm two months sober?!' She's a clarion Tibetan bell. Better listen up.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
go to rehab or 90 in 90, or both, and will not be able to work with me unless I work a 12 step program. .
She suggested rehab so she must be very concerned. She knows more about you than we do. There are also 12 step programs other than AA.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:14 AM
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One more thing I wanted to mention yesterday but I got distracted and it got left out of my post in the end. This links up with part of a comment I read yesterday from heartcore on another thread about therapy, emphasizing that therapy is a relationship really. It differs quite significantly in this sense from many ordinary doctor-patient scenarios, where the emotional connection between them is typically less intense, important, and relevant.

So in this sense it is also important that both parties involved can experience a host of emotions towards each-other, towards the work being conducted, or feelings pretty much independently derived from the therapeutic relationship but projected into it... a huge amount of dynamic stuff really. It's just that there are defined roles in the relationship, namely that the therapist is the knowledgeable guide whose primary role is to help the patient, while keeping themselves on track so that the process will remain intact and productive. Ideally, anyway.

What comes from the very nature of this type of relationship though is that no one will remain unaffected by it. I would argue that if they do, it's not working well. Therapists are trained to cope with the emotional impact of all this on themselves and normally have experience with this, so roles can remain intact (supposedly). But it's a human-human connection, not with a computer that can just run programs and process data in an impersonal way. Especially if there is prior history working together, like in your case. And sometimes there are glitches in the "programming" (learned methods, coping skills, etc). Everyone is different, but for example in my own case, I've learned that in my experience with therapy so far, what often yields the most powerful and productive outcome is all those interpersonal elements (wherever they come from), and it's not always simply just pink and rosy, or super easy to process. I'm actually just starting with a new therapist in part building on this experience, to take advantage of this using a different approach, more than we did with the previous person I was seeing.

Anyway, I'm just saying all this to emphasize that if you had previous success with your therapist and you feel compelled to work with her again (as you seem to), maybe try not to focus too tightly on this recent reaction of hers. Like others suggested, talk to her and clarify whatever needs to be clarified.

With regard to your comment on her recommendation and your disagreement with it, if you really disagree but have your own ideas, why not bring those ideas into the discussions with her? As an example: say that you like the AVRT method and would like to be able to use it more efficiently in your recovery, but she is not familiar with it. Why not show her and discuss? If you worked with her previously and it was productive, it's likely that she would be able to give you at least some feedback on your choices.

Back to the variety of heavy challenges you are facing and dealing with right now. My heart goes out to you, my friend. But please remember that these are times when many of us are most vulnerable to addictive thinking and actions... so it's always a good idea to strengthen our recovery regime during such periods. I do feel for you in that the idea of bringing in new methods for you just right now may feel overwhelming.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:32 AM
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Hi:

First of all, there are many methods. Second you are not a lost cause, that's all AV talk.

Maybe she is tired of seeing you in this cycle and is setting a boundary.

Therapists are people too. If she didn't care she would just take your money.
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Old 02-27-2015, 01:07 PM
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Thank you everyone for your words of wisdom.

Even the ones that I don't want to hear.

I'm in gratitude for all who have taken their precious time to help me.

Such a wonderful wonderful place.

thanks.
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Old 02-27-2015, 02:03 PM
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Hi.
The meaning of sober on this site and in definitions is having NO alcohol and or drugs in our system.
IMO sober is when we are “healthy in mind and emotions.” This takes far more than putting down the drink/drug. It requires work and changes in our thinking and actions. Stopping drinking is only the tip of the iceberg, there is so much more to work on.

Joe N hit so many nails on the head, most probably won’t even consider them. IMO they will suffer and relapse, relapse, relapse and disappear into the misery alcohol gives us.

The fellowship shows us how to live in a manner not many here have experienced since we started drinking.

I’ve been in the fellowship many years and the benefits have been beyond my dreams come true.
The big thing is being comfortable in my own skin and being able to handle in a more healthy manner life on life terms. Both the good and not so good. Life happens.

I have a close friend who I go fishing with and we share in the moments things are slow. He is considered a very good therapist and considers alcoholics the most difficult people to deal with.

We do have a reputation of being dishonest and having things our way even after being shown it doesn’t work. Long ago I heard “alcoholics have low self esteem and super egos.”

JMO
BE WELL
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:11 PM
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Thumbs up

Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
I'm still in shock.

I desperately need a place to unload my grief. Someone who knows my history. And can help me process this SOBER. My greatest fear (my mother dying) is happening. Presently and in my face. There is no escaping this reality and it is more than an I can honestly bear.

I thought I was doing the right thing by advocating for myself.

I returned her call. She let it go to voicemail . How I remained so calm is a mystery to me.
I explained my situation. My sobriety and I let her know that I was heartsick at her approach.

And as far as HER being "frustrated" ??!?!? Well let me just give that a big, fat, GIVE ME A FLAKING BREAK. She's a THERAPIST for gods sake. Do your job. Damn it.

I'm not sure I am capable of processing this situation right now. I'm not going to AA (right now). I have tried it in the past, it triggered me. But I am open to it in the near future. I just don't want that. At the present it is a NO. I have tried it. Multiple times. I don't care for it. And with a 5% success rate, well.....

I thought a therapists job was to meet their clients where they are ?

Now my blood is boiling and I have to reserve my energy for tomorrow at the hospital, which based upon what I have read from the tests she will be facing, will be hell on earth.

Thanks everyone for the insight. I'm truly in gratitude.
Alpha, your angst is palatable. Your frustration saddens me. The situation between you and your therapist is in my opinion untenable for you. I wish it wasn't so, but there it is, for me anyways, is how I see you describing what has transpired.

You know, having been myself both client and counselor in the addiction recovery scene, you present to me as a person who likely isn't the easiest of clients. I also base my opinion on our own relationship here at SR. We have had our differences, and yet, we have moved forward learning to appreciate each other even more as we thereafter looked past our differences.

I don't know all that has gone on between you and your past therapist. Nonetheless, her reply to your recent request for a consultation is evidence enough for me as a therapist she is unable to continue with you. As well, leaving a voicemail detailing her demanding advisements be followed (or else is implied) is another red flag indicating she no longer has a clearly resolved therapeutic relationship with you. It presents to me anyways she has drawn a line in the sand which describes your alcoholism as needing to be treated separately from whatever therapy she might offer. As a therapist, she has every right to practice in such a way. I don't agree with her, knowing you as I do, and I don't share her understanding of you and your alcoholism / addiction challenges.

The job of a therapist, good or bad, has already been well described in this thread. I'll add my thoughts too. Being as therapists at the end of a day are human too, and so a lot of latitude exists on what makes one therapist "good" and another "bad" for different clients. Its really not important either way what my own opinion is or isn't with regards to your therapist's professionalism. Much more important is your own opinion on your relationship with your therapist.

Since you're the client, and you pay for a service, your opinion on the relationship is *more valuable* than is the therapist's opinion on what she deems to be required from you for her to go forward. (If you were declared incompetent, then not so much of course.) Importantly, there are many therapists available for you to consider. There is only one of you though, and so its obvious to me you have final say on the working quality of the relationship between you and any therapist. Your opinion on your own well-being is first-hand, while all other opinions are derived. This position can be overplayed of course, but in this case anyways I don't see you as being false to yourself so as to appease your therapist being a smart move. Obviously you have stated AA seems false to you for whatever reasons. So be it. It's not for everybody. And it doesn't have to be either.

I suggest you would do better to seek a more workable therapy with a different therapist. Yes, there is something to be said to work things out with your present therapist. However, you don't pay her to work things out. You pay her for her expertise, and in your case as her client, she seems unable to provide what you have clearly asked her to provide. For me, there are other therapists who could manage to successfully work with you without having such similar demands which require "doing" AA.

I'm mindful of your urgent responsibilities with your mother. I'm sorry for how so many challenges seem to come up all in a moment. Your mother, your husband, your children, your employees, and so on...

And of course, yourself. You know, you have every good reason to believe you are very capable of seeing your way through all this, my friend. I believe in YOU (((Alpha)))
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Old 02-27-2015, 04:27 PM
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Alpha, if your only tool is a hammer all problems look like nails. It might be time to check out your therapist's toolbox.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:01 PM
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That sucks AO. She has gotten tough on you before. You are actually the closest thing I have to a therapist so can't comment on how a paid one is supposed to act. I do think even though we are not only alcoholics nothing will get better until we stop using. Maybe she just wants to see some sign that you are serious. If you don't want to use AA scope out another method and present her with that combined with your 2 months.
Yes, don't drink over this. If you need someone to talk to SR is always here.
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Old 02-27-2015, 06:16 PM
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I am not sure if your therapist is a LPC (licensed professional counselor) or a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a social worker. They all have different approaches and even those under the same umbrella have different theoretical orientations. Some maybe Rogerian, others psychoanalytical and others existential. BUT, they all have to adhere to a code of ethics. And based on what you have disclosed, it appears that your therapist has indeed violated a basic ethical code that straddles across all helping professions. Do not harm the client. If she/he felt that she/he could no longer work with you, they have an ethical duty to refer you to another therapist and explain why they no longer feel they can benefit you. Just calling and dumping you is WRONG. I would report them to whichever sanctioning and licensing office oversees them. It is NEVER about the therapist and their frustration level. That is very unprofessional.
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Old 02-27-2015, 07:29 PM
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Finally I got the chance to sit down and really pour over and masticate all this delicious wisdom Being a passionate lover of the human condition, it fascinates me how many ways there can be to successfully skin a cat.

I am an emotional train wreck right now. Raw and vulnerable, and therefore, malleable and easily influenced. I'm glad I reached out. Some comments stung, most comforted, and all were well received.

I truly believe, in my heart of hearts, she dropped the ball. She came out swinging and assuming that I had self sabotaged. Demanding something counterintuitive to my own process. She's an alternative therapist in that she's rather uber spiritual in her approach which I cottoned to right away.

If I shared some of our conversations, yall would think I'm bat sh1t for even entertaining a second session. Yes Robby, I'm a tough one, but I thought I had found someone who "really got me" warts and all. I'm far from "clinical" only in that I'm an anomaly due to my out there philosophies and approach to the life experience in general.

I never lied. Not once. I never falsified my sobriety or lack thereof.

And as far as alcoholics being "tough cases" for therapists, I'm calling bullcorn on that one. She's an ADDICTION counselor for cry eye. If you can't hang with the big dogs, get off the mother loving porch.

We made progress with me processing my PTSD. For that, I'm grateful. But to tout yourself as a hypnotherapist (I was easily hyponotised btw) with a metaphysical approach (including all things Guides, Angels, God, Buddah, Father Sky, Mother Earth woo woo shenanigans) and repeatedly enforcing the To thine own self be true, it really pulled the rug out from under me when all of a sudden there were no options but hers.

I'm getting over it, but I'm hurt. That's ok.

I tend to do my best work when slightly bruised.
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