A Radical New Approach To Recovery From Substance Abuse
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Western NY
Posts: 1,209
FreeRecovery - Please accept my apologies, my curt reply was under the assumption that you were a robot spammer.
With regard to free will, it strikes me as one of those questions akin to "does a soul exist". You can spend a lifetime contemplating every possible angle that comes with a question like that. However, you would die an old man no closer to the answer. Does free will's status as an 'illusion' or 'real' have any material impact anyway? Even if it was an 'illusion' I perceive it as real. In fact, if free will doesn't exist then what purpose do I (i.e. ego) serve? I'll check out the video. Maybe the good Doctor has it all figured out.
"Autopilot" to me just means that I am in a reactive mode. There are no novel activities that have presented themselves. I am able to go through those non-novel activities with little thought. When a novel activity presents itself then "pilot" mode is activated, and I shift from reactive mode to contemplative mode. I think you could even say that they are distinct levels of consciousness.
With regard to free will, it strikes me as one of those questions akin to "does a soul exist". You can spend a lifetime contemplating every possible angle that comes with a question like that. However, you would die an old man no closer to the answer. Does free will's status as an 'illusion' or 'real' have any material impact anyway? Even if it was an 'illusion' I perceive it as real. In fact, if free will doesn't exist then what purpose do I (i.e. ego) serve? I'll check out the video. Maybe the good Doctor has it all figured out.
"Autopilot" to me just means that I am in a reactive mode. There are no novel activities that have presented themselves. I am able to go through those non-novel activities with little thought. When a novel activity presents itself then "pilot" mode is activated, and I shift from reactive mode to contemplative mode. I think you could even say that they are distinct levels of consciousness.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Virginia, USA
Posts: 34
I see that Sam Harris is a respected author and received very positive reviews on his book on the subject. I thank you for bringing him to my attention because it looks like a book I would be interested in reading.
Not sure that many alcoholics, including people in AA for that matter, do not believe in free will. I am not in AA but I read, and I don't think affirmations of powerlessness or stating a belief in a higher power necessarily means that members believe their lives are controlled by supernatural forces. I think by surrendering, even if it is mentally symbolic, can psychologically empower you to reclaim free will. Strange creatures we are and if anything is true, all of us are incapable of gaining full control of our actions despite our belief that we can.
Not sure also I'm making total sense but that wouldn't be unusual.
Not sure that many alcoholics, including people in AA for that matter, do not believe in free will. I am not in AA but I read, and I don't think affirmations of powerlessness or stating a belief in a higher power necessarily means that members believe their lives are controlled by supernatural forces. I think by surrendering, even if it is mentally symbolic, can psychologically empower you to reclaim free will. Strange creatures we are and if anything is true, all of us are incapable of gaining full control of our actions despite our belief that we can.
Not sure also I'm making total sense but that wouldn't be unusual.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 205
I agree that free will is an illusion, in the sense of an illusion being something that is wrongly perceived or interpreted.
I'd go further and argue that the self is also an illusion. There is doing, and then a story is told about the doing, attributing it to a doer.
Doing, and even experiencing, simply happens. No self - no doer, no experiencer -exists, or is necessary to the action, or the experience.
All there is is life, living.
Where Sam Harris and I part ways is that my world-view encompasses a more complex web of illusion. Mine includes higher powers, and lower ones, multiple selves (all of them illusory), "life" after "death" (being a transition from one realm of illusion to a subtler one) and so on.
I don't believe in the self, or a fortiori free will, but I do believe in ghosts, for example, who have illusory selves the same as me.
What does the realization that free will is an illusion mean to recovery?
I'll use dreaming as a metaphor for our condition. In a dream, everything is illusion. If we realize we are dreaming, that is to say if we correctly apprehend the nature of the dream, everything changes. We can change our experience, achieve some measure of control, bend its content to accord with our desires.
The same holds true for waking life. When we correctly apprehend its illusory nature, we are able to make it a more pleasant illusion. We're no longer compelled to drink, or engage in other activities which have consequences we dislike, because, notwithstanding the power of our survival drives (for the RR crowd) or the pertinacity of our character defects (a nod to AA) these have no more power to harm or control us than a monster in a dream.
I'd go further and argue that the self is also an illusion. There is doing, and then a story is told about the doing, attributing it to a doer.
Doing, and even experiencing, simply happens. No self - no doer, no experiencer -exists, or is necessary to the action, or the experience.
All there is is life, living.
Where Sam Harris and I part ways is that my world-view encompasses a more complex web of illusion. Mine includes higher powers, and lower ones, multiple selves (all of them illusory), "life" after "death" (being a transition from one realm of illusion to a subtler one) and so on.
I don't believe in the self, or a fortiori free will, but I do believe in ghosts, for example, who have illusory selves the same as me.
What does the realization that free will is an illusion mean to recovery?
I'll use dreaming as a metaphor for our condition. In a dream, everything is illusion. If we realize we are dreaming, that is to say if we correctly apprehend the nature of the dream, everything changes. We can change our experience, achieve some measure of control, bend its content to accord with our desires.
The same holds true for waking life. When we correctly apprehend its illusory nature, we are able to make it a more pleasant illusion. We're no longer compelled to drink, or engage in other activities which have consequences we dislike, because, notwithstanding the power of our survival drives (for the RR crowd) or the pertinacity of our character defects (a nod to AA) these have no more power to harm or control us than a monster in a dream.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
Might I also suggest reading:
Transformation & Healing
Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness
Thich Nhat Hanh
It's a tough read at first, but eventually it makes sense.
I highly recommend all look into some type of mindfulness training.
Another great book is:
Full Catastrophe Living
Using the Wisdom of Your Body and Mind to Face Stress, Pain, and Illness
Jon Kabat-Zinn
It does not deal directly with addiction, but it can be used as a great tool to aid in overcoming addiction and many of the life issues presented from addiction.
Transformation & Healing
Sutra on the Four Establishments of Mindfulness
Thich Nhat Hanh
It's a tough read at first, but eventually it makes sense.
I highly recommend all look into some type of mindfulness training.
Another great book is:
Full Catastrophe Living
Using the Wisdom of Your Body and Mind to Face Stress, Pain, and Illness
Jon Kabat-Zinn
It does not deal directly with addiction, but it can be used as a great tool to aid in overcoming addiction and many of the life issues presented from addiction.
Hears The Voice
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Unshackled
Posts: 7,901
I used to get free wills when I was in the Navy, but now that I am out I have to pay for them. They are essential to a sound financial and estate plan, though, so I highly recommend them.
[/intentionallyobtuse]
[/intentionallyobtuse]
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: illinois
Posts: 907
"Freewill"
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign...'
Blame is better to give than receive
[Chorus:]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotusland
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate
[Chorus]
Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet
[Chorus]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
-RUSH lyrics. couldnt resist. hopeless geek with song in my head now.
There are those who think that life has nothing left to chance
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign...'
Blame is better to give than receive
[Chorus:]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
There are those who think
That they were dealt a losing hand
The cards were stacked against them
They weren't born in Lotusland
All preordained
A prisoner in chains
A victim of venomous fate
Kicked in the face
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate
[Chorus]
Each of us
A cell of awareness
Imperfect and incomplete
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet
[Chorus]
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill
-RUSH lyrics. couldnt resist. hopeless geek with song in my head now.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
Whoa!
Like others, I d like to know more about you: How long have you been clean? What was your DOC?
Did some of your friends also use this method or is it just what you do for you?
Now keeping it real, this is all awfully complex and difficult to read let alone grasp.
I know quite a few active crack and meth addicts and low bottom drunks. Most of them are homeless people.
There is absolutely no way that someone who is still using and might be barely literate would wrap whatever is left of their brain around your concepts. You would lose them mid first paragraph.
Shoot you lost me a few times and I am quite familiar myself with AVRT and AA and have a couple of years sober under my belt and a college degree.
Like others, I d like to know more about you: How long have you been clean? What was your DOC?
Did some of your friends also use this method or is it just what you do for you?
Now keeping it real, this is all awfully complex and difficult to read let alone grasp.
I know quite a few active crack and meth addicts and low bottom drunks. Most of them are homeless people.
There is absolutely no way that someone who is still using and might be barely literate would wrap whatever is left of their brain around your concepts. You would lose them mid first paragraph.
Shoot you lost me a few times and I am quite familiar myself with AVRT and AA and have a couple of years sober under my belt and a college degree.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
I haven’t figured out a way to make sure that people take the 3-5 days and witness their lives without free will
Have you ever seen the movie Brazil?
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Central America/Florida USA
Posts: 4,064
Sam Harris is great, I love his lectures and he has lots of interesting things to say on religion, free will, and how to enjoy our peaceful moments and escape the day-to-day worries. He does, also, look a lot like Ben Stiller and he even mentions that in one of his lectures! Funny guy, smart guy.
I'm glad you are enjoying your recovery, FreeRecovery. As for your pitch, it's interesting but it comes across a bit overwhelming. But there's nothing wrong with sharing links, discussing philosophies, etc. Have a good day and stay sober.
I'm glad you are enjoying your recovery, FreeRecovery. As for your pitch, it's interesting but it comes across a bit overwhelming. But there's nothing wrong with sharing links, discussing philosophies, etc. Have a good day and stay sober.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New England
Posts: 1,926
Originally Posted by Thepatman 
Here goes nothing. I'm not particularly intelligent so bear with me. I have the free will to drive to the corner store right now to buy a 36 back of Budweiser cans. But I choose not too. Because I drank enough beer cans in my life to cover the distance to the moon and back. So my choice is to live sober, and die this way. So when I meet my creator, I can stand proud and tell him that I made the choice, to live sober. The greatest gift he ever gave me is my freedom of choice. Not sure where this fits, but it's what I believe in.
By the way...what ever happened to "keeping it SIMPLE?" I didn't read the original post...too complicated for me, sorry.
I also agree with others that everything should be PUBLIC on SR (unless this is a scam)? Not saying you are one of them, but there are a lot of crazy people out there that prey on the weak.
If you are truly hoping your "method" will help someone, good luck to you. I wish nothing more than for everyone to overcome the hell of addiction.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
Originally Posted by bigsombrero
As for your pitch, it's interesting but it comes across a bit overwhelming. But there's nothing wrong with sharing links, discussing philosophies, etc. Have a good day and stay sober.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: PA
Posts: 12,000
don't know what happened, after the clowning last night - my post is gone... ???
anyway, I like Harris, he makes a lot of sense...
it's just that coming into the forum like gangbusters spouting some new miracle cure or whatever seemed a little over the top...
and yes, there is no such color as pink - it is only imagined,
and while were on the music lyrics kick, take a look at David Bowie's "Changes"
anyway, I like Harris, he makes a lot of sense...
it's just that coming into the forum like gangbusters spouting some new miracle cure or whatever seemed a little over the top...
and yes, there is no such color as pink - it is only imagined,
and while were on the music lyrics kick, take a look at David Bowie's "Changes"
Left the bottle behind 4/16/2015
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 1,416
Complicated stuff. Anytime I've attempted to out-think my addiction it manages to make a fool of me. Concepts too complex and elusive to call to memory at a moment's notice just don't stand a chance when that basic compulsion strikes. Addiction has little to do with reason. If it did, none of us would have ever become addicts in the first place. We have ample reason not to drink/use already yet did it anyway.
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