Anna

If you truly believe you can't get sober until you change people, I feel sorry for you.

You can only change yourself and your reactions. That's it. None of us have the power to change others. Everyone is on their own path. I hope you can change perspective.

Mirage74

Thx Anna, so kind. And I simply don't believe that you can't change people. It's a myth conjured up by someone.

Fly N Buy

Mirage,

Hope you are better today!
Change in others is tricky, imo.......

I have seen change in other adults around me ( adult children included). But for me it wasn't words that changed them it was my actions that did. This was a double edged sword in my case.

I had lost credibility when drinking so my actions were mostly of a poor nature. Even when I did what I would consider something that might change another's behavior based on my actions I was not taken seriously because of my own issues.

In sobriety others I think see hope - at that point my actions (and slowly my words) can change others I have found - specifically those whom there is an intimate relationship.

Sounds like your going through a lot. I hope you'll find your way....thoughts are with you today.

Kind Regards,
FlyN

AnvilheadII

so dear Mirage, how many people have you actually changed.....so far? and why MUST they change?

maybe you could try a new approach....live and let live. you work on making the changes in YOU and YOUR life as you deem fit, and let others do as they will.

otherwise i think you are setting yourself up, by putting an impossible "must" before getting sober. as a truly sober person you may gain a whole new perspective. i know that's what happened for me....

EndGameNYC

If you want to change people's lives, then become an EMT, volunteer at a special needs program for children, or get active working for an ideal that inspires your passion.

The "myth" is that we actually change other people. We can influence their thoughts and feelings, but learned behavior and temperament are extremely resistant to change, from within and from without. Even our thoughts, beliefs and ways of thinking are stubborn. You only need to look at alcoholism and other addictions for proof.

Don't confuse compliance from other people as change. We can beat people into submission, emotionally, intellectually and physically, but this only throws in sharper relief and strengthens who they are. They're only pushing their true feelings and beliefs underground in order to get through the day or to survive unpleasant people and circumstances. Our influence on others doesn't change their being; it only reveals who they are.

You consider yourself a rebel and you thrive on confrontation. Do these things enhance your desire and motivation for sobriety, or do they keep you stuck in the infinite loop of drinking, stopping and then drinking again? Without using criticism and observations from other people as a means to improve yourself and your life, what's in it for you to embrace this attitude in your relationships with other people and with the world in general?

I don't know what it is, but if you're drinking is fueling your confrontation and rebelliousness (which you consider assets), and vice versa, then it seems that something's missing.

ArtFriend

Have you ever heard the expression "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink?" You may want people to change but they won't until they see the need to do so. You can badger, cojole, coax, argue, seduce, whatever until the cows come home (or the horse in this illustration). It sounds like a control issue. Like Anna said, the only person you can control is yourself and how you react to others. If you keep beating your head on the wall about this, you will give yourself license to drink and rinse and repeat. Break that cycle.

Mirage74

Obviously I've got a situation. And it's unlike any situation anyone else has ever had, or at least I've yet to meet them. Which makes it more frustrating, because no one gets it.

Why must they change? Because they are wrong. When you're wrong, and obstinate about it at the same time, it becomes a problem. For me anyway. I guess others have some ability to let it go and move on.

Aellyce

Hi Mirage. Sorry that you are going through these difficult conflicts and that you drank.

I have another book recommendation for you:
The Story of My Experiments with Truth by Gandhi. It's his autobiography; might carry some inspiration for you.

But before all, it's never going to be easy/feasible to venture into ambitious "big projects" while drinking alcoholically, those things just don't mix.

Soberwolf

Mirage print this thread off & keep it for future reference please

Mirage74

Why would I do that? I don't agree with what's being said.

Anyway, I'm done.

ArtFriend

Why not tell us what the situation is and maybe we can help. You never know...someone else might be going thru or have been thru something just like it.

Soberwolf

Thats the whole point

SparkleKitty

If you need proof of the futility of trying to change other people, you can see it right here in the number of caring and thoughtful people here trying to change you.

Nowsthetime

I hear AV all over your post. You think that you are unique
and in a unique situation... AV. You think others are wrong and have to change... AV. Oh and the classic "I'm done"... AV.

Don't let your AV win. You came here for a reason, no?

Fly N Buy

[QUOTE=EndGameNYC;5193276

The "myth" is that we actually change other people. We can influence their thoughts and feelings, but learned behavior and temperament are extremely resistant to change, from within and from without. Even our thoughts, beliefs and ways of thinking are stubborn. You only need to look at alcoholism and other addictions for proof.

Don't confuse compliance from other people as change. We can beat people into submission, emotionally, intellectually and physically, but this only throws in sharper relief and strengthens who they are. They're only pushing their true feelings and beliefs underground in order to get through the day or to survive unpleasant people and circumstances. Our influence on others doesn't change their being; it only reveals who they are.
[/QUOTE]

EndGame -

Always respect your input
I am curious about your last sentence. In my case I do see change in others around me - specifically family members - since I have achieved some level of sobriety.

This change manifests itself in others taking more pride in themselves - exercise, weight loss, learning - course work , etc.

Is it your belief that these "changes" I see are truly who they always were or that witnessing change in another can drive them to change themselves?

I am very passive to my loved ones about recovery. Let my actions show change and not my words. There was no brow beating towards others nor driving them to submission and into compliance - just the opposite, more live and let live.

Or, perhaps my drunken actions had simply driven them into a state of despair so their real selves were hidden????

Wonder what your take is on this? It certainly appears others have changed around me as I continue working a program of recovery.........

Thanks,
FlyN

tomsteve

Isnt continuously insisting someone else change rather obstinate?
People don't need to change because they are wrong. Even it they did, do you honestly believe that will be the end of your problems? Will you be done drinking?
And just how many people have you opened up to about this problem? Have you opened up here? Would it matter if someone can relate? Would you still insist you know what's good for others?

I spent way too many years living in resentment because people weren't doing what I thought they should. It didn't work. I stayed drunk. Then I got me some humility. I stopped the ," you don't know me" and " you don't understand" stuff and started relating to what others were saying. And I asked for solutions and worked em, which firing myself as the director was major. I sucked at it.

I hope ya decide to get another solution because it reads like trying to get someone else to conform to you isn't working too good.

Life's too short to live in resentments.

Carlotta

Even if you could change people, it would very probably takes tons of time and energy that would be better focused on yourself especially since right now you are drinking and sound miserable. Unless of course, you think that your happiness is dependent upon others and not an inside job.
Been there, done that, doesn't work. Sooner or later one of the puppets is bound to do something that you don't like then you will be back to square one.
I have learned to let people into my life based on who they are: the good and the bad.
If someone is more of a liability to me nowadays, I cut them off. It saves me a lot of time and stress I don't need. Even if I could change people, I'd rather do something else which is more fun.
Anyway, even to wield basic influence on someone (not talking coercion here), you need to be respected and no one respects a drunk.

So back to basics: what do you plan to do about your drinking? Do you have a plan?

AnvilheadII

Obviously I've got a situation. And it's unlike any situation anyone else has ever had, or at least I've yet to meet them. Which makes it more frustrating, because no one gets it.

Why must they change? Because they are wrong. When you're wrong, and obstinate about it at the same time, it becomes a problem

wicked combination of Terminal Uniqueness AND Righteous Indignation.

AKA excuses to keep drinking.

Anna

This thread is now closed. Thanks everybody for your input.