The right way to judge others......
Trudgin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
The right way to judge others......
There isn't one!
I slipped!
How many times do we read these words here? Often!
Do we judge those that just can't seem to get hold of sobriety?
Sometimes. I know I do
Who Am I to judge others? My entire adult life until 6 months ago was one big slip......."The nearer the destination, the more we keep slip sliding away". As the song goes.......
I have learned from others ( surely not of my own making) that love and tolerance is our goal. For others and ourselves.
We are not asked in life to be perfect - no one is. Even the tenured super sober friends here would likely agree. Trying, again - changing things and keep going is all that we can expect of ourselves as people.
If your new here - WELCOME! If you've struggled lately - Welcome back! If your not sure you can make it through Today - Great! Glad you're here!
Whether you are a religious person, an atheist, and agnostic or simply YOU - there is room for all of us with Love and Tolerance as our Creed
Post your thoughts, perhaps about love and tolerance - how you struggle with it, or how you are overcoming/overcame not being the high brow friend - here or elsewhere.
Come, let us all take off the robes and be joined on the front lines solving our common problem uniquely.
Kind Regards,
FlyN
I slipped!
How many times do we read these words here? Often!
Do we judge those that just can't seem to get hold of sobriety?
Sometimes. I know I do
Who Am I to judge others? My entire adult life until 6 months ago was one big slip......."The nearer the destination, the more we keep slip sliding away". As the song goes.......
I have learned from others ( surely not of my own making) that love and tolerance is our goal. For others and ourselves.
We are not asked in life to be perfect - no one is. Even the tenured super sober friends here would likely agree. Trying, again - changing things and keep going is all that we can expect of ourselves as people.
If your new here - WELCOME! If you've struggled lately - Welcome back! If your not sure you can make it through Today - Great! Glad you're here!
Whether you are a religious person, an atheist, and agnostic or simply YOU - there is room for all of us with Love and Tolerance as our Creed
Post your thoughts, perhaps about love and tolerance - how you struggle with it, or how you are overcoming/overcame not being the high brow friend - here or elsewhere.
Come, let us all take off the robes and be joined on the front lines solving our common problem uniquely.
Kind Regards,
FlyN
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
Great stuff.
Everyone is struggling, everyone hurts, everyone fails and everyone grows.... At their own pace and along their own path.
I think the only 'right' judgement toward others is the judgement of whether we are willing to invest our time and energy with them.... Because sometimes that judgement can be life-saving to us.
Beyond that... It is not our job to judge.
Everyone is struggling, everyone hurts, everyone fails and everyone grows.... At their own pace and along their own path.
I think the only 'right' judgement toward others is the judgement of whether we are willing to invest our time and energy with them.... Because sometimes that judgement can be life-saving to us.
Beyond that... It is not our job to judge.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: C.C. Ma.
Posts: 3,697
Hi.
In my view you are correct in some ways.
One thing we must do perfectly is not drink alcohol if we are alcoholics. My main thinking about this is we don’t know if we have another sober time if we slip. I’ve seen a sorry number who live in misery, if they are still alive and just don’t have another recovery. That happens more with longer sober time.
Many alcoholics have above average intelligence and that seems to trip up many, thinking they have the answers.
There are many programs that work IF we work them and want to be sober, not for a short period but a long learning period. As a friend says often, application, application. I’ll add REMEMBER WHEN because we forget too soon the pains and losses from this disease.
BE WELL
In my view you are correct in some ways.
One thing we must do perfectly is not drink alcohol if we are alcoholics. My main thinking about this is we don’t know if we have another sober time if we slip. I’ve seen a sorry number who live in misery, if they are still alive and just don’t have another recovery. That happens more with longer sober time.
Many alcoholics have above average intelligence and that seems to trip up many, thinking they have the answers.
There are many programs that work IF we work them and want to be sober, not for a short period but a long learning period. As a friend says often, application, application. I’ll add REMEMBER WHEN because we forget too soon the pains and losses from this disease.
BE WELL
Trudgin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by IOAA2 
In my view you are correct in some ways.
One thing we must do perfectly is not drink alcohol if we are alcoholics. My main thinking about this is we don’t know if we have another sober time if we slip.
I am simply in no place to judge others - yes, we never know if we get another chance. There's only one who knows, and it's NOT me
Thank you for posting IOAA
peace
FlyN
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Great post, Fly. I would have a lot to say about this topic but unfortunately no time right now... So just some simple things. I think there is a difference between formulating subjective, personal opinions on any subject or on others' views as a reflection -- and "judgement", which implies qualifying in a good/bad, positive/negative, white/black, accept/reject etc way. I believe that both opinions and judgments have places in life and in our interactions with other people and with the environment, the question is more how it's best to apply these and when. Not an easy question for sure!
I feel that I have not had much problems with tolerance in general throughout my life, kinda natural and I feel lucky for this trait... EXCEPT my worst drinking times, and even more the withdrawal phases. Part of the reason why drinking ended up so horrific for me towards the end, all the impatience and irritability... Shows how alcohol alters the working of our brains.
As for love... oh dear, that's a whole different animal... Of course love and tolerance are intertwined in some ways, but they are far from too overlapping. Well, we could discuss different forms of love, and different maturity in how we live the experience. Maybe another time
Thanks for your post and enjoy the Holidays!
I feel that I have not had much problems with tolerance in general throughout my life, kinda natural and I feel lucky for this trait... EXCEPT my worst drinking times, and even more the withdrawal phases. Part of the reason why drinking ended up so horrific for me towards the end, all the impatience and irritability... Shows how alcohol alters the working of our brains.
As for love... oh dear, that's a whole different animal... Of course love and tolerance are intertwined in some ways, but they are far from too overlapping. Well, we could discuss different forms of love, and different maturity in how we live the experience. Maybe another time
Thanks for your post and enjoy the Holidays!
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
One more thought series... or opinion I think very often it's much more about how we express and transmit our message, which will affect emotionally the people on the receiving end. There are always a few (many?) ways to say the same thing... I think we can also see this mechanism here on SR: what kinds of posts tend to provoke negative reactions and hurts, for example. It's often not simply about the topic or substance (what is expressed per se). One can say, all this is quite complex, sort of the art of communication, or debates, or what some might call social or interaction skills. I think that pure, unconditional acceptance is not always the best way to help someone -- again, another thing quite prevalent reading the boards here. Same ideas probably familiar for those that have experience in management / leadership (which is not a simple art, to say the least). Of course the most effective ways of communication often vary hugely in terms of what community we are in. So to summarize, again, I think it's often much more about the how when it comes to expressing opinions and judgments with the intention to help. And it also interacts with the personality and mental state of the receiving end. One reason why helping others can be quite challenging, I would say.
I think very often it's much more about how we express and transmit our message, which will affect emotionally the people on the receiving end. There are always a few (many?) ways to say the same thing... I think we can also see this mechanism here on SR: what kinds of posts tend to provoke negative reactions and hurts, for example. It's often not simply about the topic or substance (what is expressed per se). One can say, all this is quite complex, sort of the art of communication, or debates, or what some might call social or interaction skills. I think that pure, unconditional acceptance is not always the best way to help someone -- again, another thing quite prevalent reading the boards here. Same ideas probably familiar for those that have experience in management / leadership (which is not a simple art, to say the least). Of course the most effective ways of communication often vary hugely in terms of what community we are in. So to summarize, again, I think it's often much more about the how when it comes to expressing opinions and judgments with the intention to help. And it also interacts with the personality and mental state of the receiving end. One reason why helping others can be quite challenging, I would say.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: New England
Posts: 4,420
I think that those who try and relapse over and over in a short period just don't have the concept of stopping yet. I know I didn't. I really, truly thought I was trying all those times before, but I had so much doubt in my own ability that it was truly inevitable that I would fail. Because I didn't understand the undertaking. It was not just about putting the bottle down for good. It was about wanting to put it down, and to leave it down forever.
I can't judge, for there but for the grace of God go I, and I know, every time I read that someone slipped or relapsed or whatever name they want to put on it, that could be me, and I know the shame I would feel in posting that news- I would never want to pile on and make someone feel worse than they already do.
To me, that's not what this place is for.
I can't judge, for there but for the grace of God go I, and I know, every time I read that someone slipped or relapsed or whatever name they want to put on it, that could be me, and I know the shame I would feel in posting that news- I would never want to pile on and make someone feel worse than they already do.
To me, that's not what this place is for.
Trudgin
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by haennie
One more thought series... or opinion I think very often it's much more about how we express and transmit our message, which will affect emotionally the people on the receiving end. There are always a few (many?) ways to say the same thing... I think we can also see this mechanism here on SR: what kinds of posts tend to provoke negative reactions and hurts, for example. It's often not simply about the topic or substance (what is expressed per se). One can say, all this is quite complex, sort of the art of communication, or debates, or what some might call social or interaction skills. I think that pure, unconditional acceptance is not always the best way to help someone -- again, another thing quite prevalent reading the boards here. Same ideas probably familiar for those that have experience in management / leadership (which is not a simple art, to say the least). Of course the most effective ways of communication often vary hugely in terms of what community we are in. So to summarize, again, I think it's often much more about the how when it comes to expressing opinions and judgments with the intention to help. And it also interacts with the personality and mental state of the receiving end. One reason why helping others can be quite challenging, I would say.
I think very often it's much more about how we express and transmit our message, which will affect emotionally the people on the receiving end. There are always a few (many?) ways to say the same thing... I think we can also see this mechanism here on SR: what kinds of posts tend to provoke negative reactions and hurts, for example. It's often not simply about the topic or substance (what is expressed per se). One can say, all this is quite complex, sort of the art of communication, or debates, or what some might call social or interaction skills. I think that pure, unconditional acceptance is not always the best way to help someone -- again, another thing quite prevalent reading the boards here. Same ideas probably familiar for those that have experience in management / leadership (which is not a simple art, to say the least). Of course the most effective ways of communication often vary hugely in terms of what community we are in. So to summarize, again, I think it's often much more about the how when it comes to expressing opinions and judgments with the intention to help. And it also interacts with the personality and mental state of the receiving end. One reason why helping others can be quite challenging, I would say.For me, I try to either respond in a positive manner simply with my own experience - if applicable or simply move on. When I have no experience, I encourage friends to keep coming back
letting them know I care about their plight and they are not alone.Kind Regards,
FlyN
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
Excellent post Fly. Like you, I know in the past I too have judged others who have slipped and struggled borne of my own frustration and shortcomings. My feelings on someone else's path is mine, not theirs and is a product of my own emotions. As someone who has "slipped" a number of times in my efforts to live a life without old coping mechanisms, how can I not have anything but empathy ..as I understand. I want to live a sober life and THAT now remains a constant. Someday I hope to log continuous sobriety...but I hope I retain the grace to know it is a struggle hard won for many of us.
If an addict has no empathy and compassion for the struggle... who does?
I think it is Ptcapote who's signature line says it best as its's something along the lines as an addict needs more shame like a person dying of thirst needs salt ..or something like that.
If someone else's struggle or slip, causes us negativity or a hardened heart...perhaps it is ourselves we need to judge? If we have no love to give, then perhaps we need to stay silent. You have given me much food for thought Fly. Thank you.
If an addict has no empathy and compassion for the struggle... who does?
I think it is Ptcapote who's signature line says it best as its's something along the lines as an addict needs more shame like a person dying of thirst needs salt ..or something like that.
If someone else's struggle or slip, causes us negativity or a hardened heart...perhaps it is ourselves we need to judge? If we have no love to give, then perhaps we need to stay silent. You have given me much food for thought Fly. Thank you.
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 350
For me personally, I think it's appropriate to complain about behavior, but to not judge the person (you're bad, you're a loser, you don't care about program, etc).
John Gottman's work helped me quite a lot concerning communication.
After lots of recovery, and I worked step 4 & 5, when I looked back at my judgemental behavior towards people I loved. Guess what I also found? Pain. I realized that when I judged others, it was actually painful to me. So, in the end, avoiding judgment cleans my self of toxic waste. To me, casting judgment is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies. My judgment doesn't actually do anything to the other person. It only hurts me. The same can be said of resentment.
This reminds me. It felt INCREDIBLY AWESOME to not judge someone in a particular situation. He was asking for money for food, then a bus pass, then this, then that. Without even blinking, my compassion came out and I told him I was going to an AA meeting and he was welcome to join me (pizza and movie afterwards) - he declined. When I was able to see myself in the other person, and show love, tolerance, and compassion. Wow. Just wow...amazing feeling. I thought to myself, how do I know my life couldn't turn out like his? what do I know of what he's gone through. Food for thought.
Thanks again!
John Gottman's work helped me quite a lot concerning communication.
After lots of recovery, and I worked step 4 & 5, when I looked back at my judgemental behavior towards people I loved. Guess what I also found? Pain. I realized that when I judged others, it was actually painful to me. So, in the end, avoiding judgment cleans my self of toxic waste. To me, casting judgment is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies. My judgment doesn't actually do anything to the other person. It only hurts me. The same can be said of resentment.
This reminds me. It felt INCREDIBLY AWESOME to not judge someone in a particular situation. He was asking for money for food, then a bus pass, then this, then that. Without even blinking, my compassion came out and I told him I was going to an AA meeting and he was welcome to join me (pizza and movie afterwards) - he declined. When I was able to see myself in the other person, and show love, tolerance, and compassion. Wow. Just wow...amazing feeling. I thought to myself, how do I know my life couldn't turn out like his? what do I know of what he's gone through. Food for thought.
Thanks again!
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 25,826
I know for me if SR had of locked the gates and closed the door when I disappeared for over a year and then came back with my tail between my legs I wouldn't be here now, I know now I wasn't ready to commit to Sobriety and SR opened it's arms when I finally made the decision.
I think that's the key, if people are ready to make the necessary changes, do everything in their power to make it happen, and not simply do the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
Dee's sticky sums it up well:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ouncement.html
I think that's the key, if people are ready to make the necessary changes, do everything in their power to make it happen, and not simply do the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
Dee's sticky sums it up well:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ouncement.html
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: The Deep South
Posts: 14,636
The least people could do is to quietly judge. I think it's a part of human nature to "judge" things or people or situations, and as ArtFriend said, "discern" might be the better word. So if people tend toward judging, maybe at least learn to pause and know when to zip your lip
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