newhope01

Frixion,

You haven't tested your hypothesis with the AA program yet.. but that aside you are totally over-thinking this.

You can admit you are powerless over alcohol-as in you cannot stop once you start-attend AA without believing God. People do it everyday.

Also, there's Lifering and other recovery programs too if AA is not a good fit for you.

Congratulations on your sobriety. Its not always easy.

Frixion

Ahh I love SR!!!! Getting all these ideas, comments, and suggestions are really helping me create my sobriety plan! So happy I came across this site. Thank you all so much for your input

b086

science requires faith. there is no certainty to be found in the natural sciences, only probabilities -- some of which are quite high, and some less so. that's why more data is better -- we would be less certain that the sun will rise tomorrow if it had only done it for a couple of days now

furthermore, science can never pass from description to explanation, in my opinion. it cannot give a "first cause." it can explain *that* the heart stimulates itself with consistent electrical charges, and it can describe some of the structures and processes that are involved. but it cannot, at a deep level, say "how" or "why."

part of recovery for me has involved doubting how much i really know. my thoughts are not always friendly or helpful (i.e., thoughts that recommend a drink.) if i believe all of my thoughts i will be in trouble for certain. that puts me in a bonafide pickle -- what can i trust to direct my life, if my perception and reason have shown themselves to be (at least somewhat) unreliable? this is where faith enters the picture. faith is born of doubt, and it is fed by humility -- by a recognition of my very significant limitations, foibles, inconsistencies.

very thrilled to find this thread...a lot to chew on.

as others have said with respect to using your steps -- if it works for you, then work it! i certainly have no trouble with it. i'm just a nerd and i like this "shop talk" about philosophy and science and so on....

MIRecovery

Doing it my way almost killed me. When I started to listen to people's suggestions with long term sobriety things started to get better

FreeOwl

I don't know. Give it a try I guess.


AA will still be there if you need it.

But also, just for the heck of it tomorrow why not go will the sun not to rise, and when you cannot.... Ask yourself what that experience has directly shown you.

miamifella

I really like your first step. Even though you say "we," it does not ask that we say that everyone is powerless over addiction, which was a always a sticking point for me. Your step allows that other people may have the ability (or power) to help us with our addiction.

Frixion

Well actually one of the alternative steps was "4. We joined a fellowship of recovering alcoholics, who help each other maintain sobriety."

I still plan on going to AA, it's just that in order for me to respect my own beliefs I am trying to figure out alternative steps that I can work on completing to aid my sobriety. I actually love going to AA!

2muchpain

LBrain,

You actually announced at an AA meeting that you were your own HP!!!!! LMAO!! I would of paid to be at that meeting. John

hope22

If you don't believe in God, think of it as an acronym for Good Orderly Direction

sugarbear1

One Breath At A Time by Kevin Griffin is a twist with Buddism

Eddiebuckle

Frix,

Those are a whole lot better than some folks who frequent AA manage to accomplish. If they keep you sober, stick with them. If they don't, modify them.

However, in my experience, I think Sugarbears comment ("a spiritual experience") is valid. I mean it in the sense of "spirituality is that which gives meaning to one's life and draws one to transcend oneself." I needed something other than me to move past how I thought, how I perceived and reacted to people and the world I live in, I needed to transcend the person I had become in addiction. Whatever it is that allows you to get beyond that old way of being, without regret or shame.

My higher power isn't a God per se, but more a blend of truth, love, and acceptance. It doesn't "fit" in a traditional sense of God, but it works for me. So I see no need to fix it or defend it.

Frixion

All day I have been pondering this comment from Sugarbear. And even now I am thinking about how to incorporate a spiritual aspect. Although for me when I say spiritual in this case I more mean a feeling of peace in my mind & the feeling of being part of something larger.

With this in mind, I started thinking about the universe and it's natural properties. There is so much mystery, and our planet in comparison of size is miraculously insignificant yet we are still apart of this grand universe. What this translates for me is that I don't need to know everything & I couldn't if I wanted to - This humbles my control freak nature, and my confidence of our current knowledge/ power. It makes me think about the true natures of our universe and although comparably insignificant, I am proof of these natures, as are all of you. This is something I could meditate to, these mysteries I could seek a peace of mind with & accept that many things are not in my control. "[Reality] grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change", and knowing the things I cannot change will allow me the "wisdom to know the difference" from the things I can change. I believe that meditation may help me discover the "courage to change the things I can".

So that's the best I could come up with for my own "spirituality". I know, I know sounds geeky at best, and this reply probably doesn't make a ton of sense. I just thought I'd express my current thought process regarding this. Still have a lot to work out in my mind.

Please check this out to put a little bit of a visual to what I am trying to explain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYVKcDvokiM

SoberLife90

I think the AA steps are great. Try not to think too hard. All step 2 says "Believe in a power greater than yourself to restore you to sanity"...It doesn't necessarily mean GOD or Jesus Christ...it's just something that keeps me sober. My higher power which is not a god lol...is my family and friends, my AA friends and all my online recovery friends. Try not to over think it. I used to! Now i just keep it simple. Your trying tooo hard!

SoberLife90

GOD is just what keeps me sober. AKA family and friends.

Carlotta

Thanks for the link, that was really something else

Frixion

It's not just the 2nd step that bothers me - 6/ 12 of the steps rely on a HP or a god (and those 6 do not include step one that claims ppl are powerless - possibly implying only a god/ hp has the power) I realize I am putting a ton of thought into this all, but in all actuality I am finding solutions to problems I deem to be very serious to me personally. Finding solutions to things that deeply disturb me will ultimately help me stay sober (I hope to solve these issues via alternative steps), where as before I would try to mask or ignore large issues and eventually they built up into even more serious consequences (ie. Alcoholism, depression, anxiety etc.). I will take note though to try and find more simple solutions - hopefully that will help me reduce my anxiety levels and thus helping my sobriety.

Lance40

Interesting stuff. I haven't given this a lot of thought but I don't think that the essence of spirituality can be analyzed, codified or explained. I embrace acts of Christian devotion and piety in both my private and public life and am quite active in the life of my parish cathedral, but I place very little importance on factual belief in doctrinal, dogmatic or creedal truth. Religious systems are just symbolic artifacts that give an access point to allow me to have an experience of walking into the mystery of the unknown, embracing the uncertainty of now and the future through faith, and seeing past my own ego to realize I am one small part of a greater whole. I believe in God but realize as time goes by that I have no idea who or what that is. Practically speaking, when I start or end the day with the Lord's Prayer I feel a comforting presence in my being that makes me feel safe and secure, and that experience gives me an inner strength to know that I will be okay not drinking today.

I use much the same approach to the AA steps - I don't imbue them with any particular truth in terms of the actual words, but I view them as guide posts that point to an experience behind the words. In that way I don't see much of a difference between your version and the AA steps. If a secular version resonates more with you then I'm really glad you've found something that is useful for your long-term sobriety.

Serenidad

Keep it simple. Alcoholics Anonymous is all over the world and has helped millions of people get and stay sober, even atheists and agnostics. They actually have meetings for those people where I live. I think this thread should be in the secular area of this site...just my opinion....

Good luck to you. I hope your plan works. "My" plans never work....so I'll stick with I KNOW works (for me). My sick head got me into this situation in the first place. I think I'll follow a few simple steps and listen to someone else for a while.

Good luck to you.

Hawks

It says we were powerless (past tense) over alcohol.

Therefore, along the way, we are going to get our power back, via the 12 step program.

I think this is one of the great misconceptions about AA.... That we mope around going "Oh woe is me, I'm a powerless person "

But it doesn't say "we are powerless over alcohol and shall remain ever so"

Now that does not mean we are "cured" of alcoholism.... It means we get new power, sufficient to combat the necessity of using alcohol to cope with life.

As Carl Jung said in a letter to Bill Wilson

"You see, "alcohol" in Latin is "spiritus" and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: spiritus contra spiritum."

Good spirit conquers bad spirit.

Pete55

Yes

and

Yes.

To me, Powerless over alcohol is the physical part once I put alcohol in my system, can I stop the craving, and can I stop that Jekyl and Hyde change in my personality. And do I have to power to stop both the craving and that Jekyl and Hyde ?
Meaning, can i see past the delusion after lets say the 3rd drink ?

No

Life became unmanageable are the consequences of the above.
If I crave more alcohol after the first drink, if I have a change in my personality, and I do become a stupid violent prancing clown in blackout, the spree to stop drinking ended either because I spent all the food money, the rent, eviction, sleeping under a tree with no job, seeking food at the hand-outs, waiting for the free pie n soup session between 6-6.30 once a week and if ya miss out, too bad.

Is that a life to manage ? If so then for how long can it go like this while your children are growing up in the distance and the ex has gotten on with her life, via a restraining order ?

No

So Step 1 has 2 parts, Powerless over alcohol - A life that's rather difficult to manage.

OK, so that is an extreme case, it was my situation, I identify mostly with the old timers and Dr Bob's stories.

And the strange part is, the delusional obsession ( thoughts) to keep drinking so I can one day hope to become a normal drinker, all I needed to do was build up tolerance by drinking more, so my body could one day "handle it" and go, "heyy, look at meee, I can drink!"

yeah riiight.

God as I understand Him ?

When one gets to such a low, certain survival instincts kick in. This is when nothing, absolutely nothing makes sense and to deny a God of some sort because of intellectual pride and ego is like falling on your own sword.
Over what ? Alcohol ?

No

Therfore many forget in Chapter 5, "came to believe....," that to is in the past tense.
If these 1st 100 or so alkies came to something, where then did they come from back in 1935 ?

Answer:
The gates of hell were opened, all they needed to do was walk or crawl out.
They experienced an idea passed on from others like them, that the idea is a new game in town called, "you don't HAVE to, drink just because just because, but if you identify with the 1st half of step 1, Powerless over alcohol..., that the cause of a craving is limited to a few drinkers and not all drinkers, and learn EXACTLY what craving is, it's physical which kicks in AFTER the first drink, if you "get it", then ya almost there, keep following us, we have coffee!

So why recreate the 12 steps if they came from those who experienced this living hell, yet recovered to tell how it was done.
It say's "path", not "paths".

But I do now accept there are less bottom of the barrel alcoholic sufferers these days. There was no internet back then.
So I suppose a refined method may suit some, but this alkie, me, the traditional 12 steps have worked and I am not prepared to risk anything else at this point in time.