AA, Agnostics, etc. and "Character Defects"
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AA, Agnostics, etc. and "Character Defects"
I have recently come across a very helpful and wise book, E. Kurtz & K. Ketcham, Spirituality and Imperfection- Story Telling in The Search for Meaning (New York, N.Y.: Bantam Books, 1992,1994, 2002). The authors seem comfortable with the “character defect” characterization in AA’s Sixth Step but emphasize that everyone shares such “defects” since no one is perfect and to have “defects”, indeed, to “fail”, is nothing more than to be human. They also distinguish between “religion” and “spirituality” and, quoting Bill Wilson’s dissatisfaction with “religion” (his saying that the problem with organized religion as such is “their claim how confoundedly right all of them are” (Introduction at p. 5), state that AA “has always presented its program as ‘spiritual rather then religious.’”. The term “spiritual” describes a process whereby one recognizes one’s essential humanity with all its imperfections. If one chooses to call these “defects” rather than “characteristics” this may be merely a matter of semantics, provided, may I suggest, that one remains wary of the admonition to have “all” these defects “removed” (as suggested by AA’s Twelve Steps (Six and Seven)), if “removal” implies achieving a state of perfection. If recognizing one’s “defects” or “characteristics” begins a process of developing skills to cope with them and with humility increasing one’s understanding (including self understanding), love and forgiveness (including self forgiveness) then terminology can be set aside. We are not saints. Spirituality is a process not a goal which, somehow reached, is an end. As T.S. Eliot suggests, in his Four Quartets, the end is but the beginning.
W.
W.
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by wpainterw 
I have recently come across a very helpful and wise book, E. Kurtz & K. Ketcham, Spirituality and Imperfection- Story Telling in The Search for Meaning (New York, N.Y.: Bantam Books, 1992,1994, 2002). The authors seem comfortable with the “character defect” characterization in AA’s Sixth Step but emphasize that everyone shares such “defects” since no one is perfect and to have “defects”, indeed, to “fail”, is nothing more than to be human. They also distinguish between “religion” and “spirituality” and, quoting Bill Wilson’s dissatisfaction with “religion” (his saying that the problem with organized religion as such is “their claim how confoundedly right all of them are” (Introduction at p. 5), state that AA “has always presented its program as ‘spiritual rather then religious.’”. The term “spiritual” describes a process whereby one recognizes one’s essential humanity with all its imperfections. If one chooses to call these “defects” rather than “characteristics” this may be merely a matter of semantics, provided, may I suggest, that one remains wary of the admonition to have “all” these defects “removed” (as suggested by AA’s Twelve Steps (Six and Seven)), if “removal” implies achieving a state of perfection. If recognizing one’s “defects” or “characteristics” begins a process of developing skills to cope with them and with humility increasing one’s understanding (including self understanding), love and forgiveness (including self forgiveness) then terminology can be set aside. We are not saints. Spirituality is a process not a goal which, somehow reached, is an end. As T.S. Eliot suggests, in his Four Quartets, the end is but the beginning.
W.
W.
AA literature is clear on the subject of removal of defects, I believe. These defects are essentially the 7 deadly sins in varying degrees. The 12x12 and Big Book discuss we are willing to have God remove these defects of character. We are cautioned about trying to hold on to our favorites defects - ie, lust for example. The mantra is never say never......
Once we are willing to have God remove these he may or may not, ever. There is never an attainment of perfection in this. There only one like that and we aren't Him!
The biblical correlation is in 2 Corinthians 12:9 - My grace is sufficient for thee, for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
Thanks for the topic!
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I'm atheist so I don't adhere to the concept of sin. My Buddhist leanings teach me that these so-called defects are simply parts of me. I cannot eradicate them nor do I wish to, and I can learn to control whether I act on them or not.
When something has one absolute standard as to how it operates and functions, when it doesn't operate or function that way we can call it defective. But we are humans, and there is no absolute. We can be vastly different without being defective.
When something has one absolute standard as to how it operates and functions, when it doesn't operate or function that way we can call it defective. But we are humans, and there is no absolute. We can be vastly different without being defective.
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Scott and Anattaboy:
Maybe I am mistaken or at least unclear. I am imperfect. But perhaps you may enjoy looking at the Kurtz and Ketcham book. I really don't want to pursue this in detail, having discussed it quite a bit elsewhere. Hope that some folks out there enjoy this book however. If I don't have a "point" I strongly sense that they do. Compared to them I am but a neophyte and have much to learn.
W.
Maybe I am mistaken or at least unclear. I am imperfect. But perhaps you may enjoy looking at the Kurtz and Ketcham book. I really don't want to pursue this in detail, having discussed it quite a bit elsewhere. Hope that some folks out there enjoy this book however. If I don't have a "point" I strongly sense that they do. Compared to them I am but a neophyte and have much to learn.
W.
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I view it as open to interpretation.
"defect" is simply a label that refers to "area in which I would like to focus my awareness and attention such that my behaviors align with who I wish to be".
Whether buddhist or christian or atheist or uncertain just WHAT we are or believe in, almost everyone carries within them something they feel they would like to work on or change in positive ways. If you are a human being, and if you look with full honesty upon your life and your day to day living, you will find things that in one way or another deviate from your inner sense of being.
Whether you choose to ask God to help you do that work, work it out yourself, undergo a psychological effort to transform yourself, or simply work on letting go and acceptance and self-forgiveness, we ALL can benefit as humans from an honest look at these things.... I believe.
"defect" is simply a label that refers to "area in which I would like to focus my awareness and attention such that my behaviors align with who I wish to be".
Whether buddhist or christian or atheist or uncertain just WHAT we are or believe in, almost everyone carries within them something they feel they would like to work on or change in positive ways. If you are a human being, and if you look with full honesty upon your life and your day to day living, you will find things that in one way or another deviate from your inner sense of being.
Whether you choose to ask God to help you do that work, work it out yourself, undergo a psychological effort to transform yourself, or simply work on letting go and acceptance and self-forgiveness, we ALL can benefit as humans from an honest look at these things.... I believe.
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My willingness to have "all" these defects removed means to me to have a spirit of open-mindedness. To be willing to be reconstructed, for lack of a better word.
I know that people argue that they didn't drink because of any "character defects" that needed healing, and I can respect that. I feel differently though. I had lots of things that I have no problem calling character defects, that helped me to create a very unhappy existence. For me, and all the people around me. Having many of them healed (or removed) has made my life much much better, which makes me much much happier, which makes sobriety a whole lot more enjoyable than if I were still walking around doing the same things I did 20 and 30 years ago. And being happy makes me much less likely to ever want to return to my old drinking life.
I will never be a saint, but I think it's something wonderful to shoot for.
I know that people argue that they didn't drink because of any "character defects" that needed healing, and I can respect that. I feel differently though. I had lots of things that I have no problem calling character defects, that helped me to create a very unhappy existence. For me, and all the people around me. Having many of them healed (or removed) has made my life much much better, which makes me much much happier, which makes sobriety a whole lot more enjoyable than if I were still walking around doing the same things I did 20 and 30 years ago. And being happy makes me much less likely to ever want to return to my old drinking life.
I will never be a saint, but I think it's something wonderful to shoot for.
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I, personally do not study the bb for meaning. Shortly after Bill's supposed white light experience he shared little of his own experience at all. Folks like Ernie who have also made a comfy living for themselves analyzing AA are helping themselves and others....maybe. At one time I thought his "god--not god" was the best thing on paper ('92) and am not against reading other works. Why? The research necessary to conclude that I must stop the self-destructive lifestyle (by living it)I was living was sufficient to stop volitional buying, drinking alcohol (and yes, it was difficult). I did the steps twice in my life and drank both times. Today SR is plenty of "MAGIC" for me. The only supernatural lobotomy I've experienced from making a list of "character flaws" is I no longer think everything is peachykeen as long as I'm working "the steps". A successful life requires work. The real truth is I haven't been drunk since I quit drinking.
Trudgin
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 6,348
Originally Posted by anattaboy
I, personally do not study the bb for meaning. Shortly after Bill's supposed white light experience he shared little of his own experience at all. Folks like Ernie who have also made a comfy living for themselves analyzing AA are helping themselves and others....maybe. At one time I thought his "god--not god" was the best thing on paper ('92) and am not against reading other works. Why? The research necessary to conclude that I must stop the self-destructive lifestyle (by living it)I was living was sufficient to stop volitional buying, drinking alcohol (and yes, it was difficult). I did the steps twice in my life and drank both times. Today SR is plenty of "MAGIC" for me. The only supernatural lobotomy I've experienced from making a list of "character flaws" is I no longer think everything is peachykeen as long as I'm working "the steps". A successful life requires work. The real truth is I haven't been drunk since I quit drinking.
Eknath Easwaran | Blue Mountain Center of Meditation & Nilgiri Press
Asked of Buddha
Are you a God - no
Are you a Saint - no
Are you an Angel - no
What are you>?
I am Awake!
Let me be an instrument of peace.......
or
If I didn't make you mad, come back tomorrow
Clancy I
peace to us all on our journey's ......
fly
Last edited by Dee74; 10-09-2014 at 02:48 PM. Reason: no commercial links please.
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