Serper2014

Yeah that seems like it would be ok from what I've told you, but my rules also state that I'm not allowed to initiate drinking. So calling a friend up and saying hey lets go to the bar would have been against the rules.

heath480

Normal drinkers do not to have to moderate their drinking.

Just reading your posts,it seems to me you have an obsession with Alcohol,even when you are not drinking,you are thinking about it.

I would question why you are on SR if you have no desire to stop drinking?

I did all sorts of things over the years to control and mderate my drinking,nothing worked,my Alcoholism was relentlessly progressive.I hope it is not the same for you.

luvmygirls

Hi Serper, your plan seems kind of complicated, and also conflicts with your past posts. Good for you for not drinking. It sounds like it was the best thing to do. Take care.

Serper2014

I don't think I was lying to myself then nor am I now. My opinion changes about things. You are right, early in the summer I believed abstinence was the best option for me. I didn't lie back then, I had that opinion. Now I think moderation is the best option for me and the reason is because: I don't subscribe to the idea that any behavior that one habituates is permanent. There's no scientific evidence that proves that any habituated behavior is permanent. Habits are very tough to break, but as you all know, not impossible as there are many members on here with years of clean time.

My drinking and my opinion about alcohol has gone through many many changes.

There was a time when I had never had a drink-- this is the longest period of my life.

There was a time when I was afraid to drink, drinking would cause me to have anxiety attacks (about a 3 year period)

There was a time when I drank on occasion. Maybe once a week? (this lasted about two years and was a very good time in my life)

There was a time when I drank daily and I thoroughly enjoyed it (about 8 months)

Then there was a time when I had to drink daily because of withdrawals ( This was pure hell)

So it's been about a year since that time-- the time where I physically had to drink. And I've toyed with the idea of never drinking again, I've toyed with the idea of moderation. I've had periods of abstinence where I didn't think I would ever drink again, and nights where I drank, had a good time, had very positive outcomes, not as a result of drinking, but as a result of not avoiding a tempting situation (like out with friends at a bar)

That's when it hit me that I would employ moderation for a bit, now I'm not advocating this for anyone, I've spent less time trying moderation than I have trying to quit forever, so it may not work out. But I do know that for ANY behavior, there are positives and negatives and one sign that you may have a drinking problem is if the negatives far outweigh the positives-- yet you still drink. I've been doing moderation for 2 months now and the second the negatives even come close to outweighing the positives... I'll be done with moderation.

Serper2014

I get your point, but it's up to me to decide if drinking is a problem. Has drinking been a problem in the past. YES, but it was for a relatively short period of my life... Is drinking a problem today? Well it was the other night when I was having a physical craving to drink. That was a problem, but that was the only craving I had in two months. On average is drinking a problem for me now? Not really... I just needed some help to get through a craving, regardless if I was trying to abstain forever or doing a moderation plan... I came here for help because this is a huge group of people who know how to get through cravings. Even if you don't agree with my moderation plan because it didn't work for you, I shouldn't be judged by it, people should help me because they know how terrible feeling a craving can be. --And a lot of people PMed me that night and did help me through it so I am only thankful

Serper2014

Because I've been moderating successfully for two months, I've got a long way to go... to know if this is the best plan for me. The other night I wasn't worried about having a craving, I was having a craving, and I know that SR is a resource that could help me get through the craving. Simply put, I didn't want to drink on thursday night. So I asked for help to achieve that goal.

Serper2014

I don't mean to sound rude, but normal drinkers do have to moderate their drinking. I mean I know it's a common thing that people like to say in recovery, but if you stop and really think about it it's ludacris to say that normal drinkers do not have to moderate their drinking, of course they do. I was at a work function last night and one person wanted to get shots to celebrate an achievement that was taking place in the work environment. There was about 10 people at the table and about half of them didn't participate in the shot because they were driving home that night. Now If I believe what you said that that means that those 5 people that had to moderate last night, are not normal drinkers. That seems quite unlikely. What is more likely is that normal drinkers do have to moderate. All 5 of them probably would have enjoyed a shot (I know two of them really wanted to take a shot because they said so) but they did not participate because they needed to moderate their intake in order to be safe on the highways. So normal people do moderate their drinking all the time, the amount they drink and the frequency in which they drink. Oh and just for the record, I'm not a normal drinker.

Well posts are posts, they reflect the current state of my mind at the time they were posted. I was pretty obsessed the other night because I was physically craving a drink.

Because it's not a requirement for me to want to abstain from alcohol in order to post here. As I understand it this is a forum to support people that have addictions and are in recovery. I am in recovery, and maybe your recovery is different than mine, maybe your goal is to abstain forever. However, that isn't the goal of my recovery, the goal of my recovery is to not partake in the most damaging behaviors that I used to partake in. This includes daily drinking and alone drinking as the #1 priorities. These behaviors I absolutely will not tolerate because these behaviors are what got me into a bad place. So our recovery programs are different with different goals, I respect yours, so please respect mine.

ScottFromWI

If you have cravings for alcohol that you cannot control without external assurance, you have a problem with alcohol....period.

pupkin

Major congrats on getting from day 9 to 11, Serper. Your logic doesn't need to make sense to us but here's what confuses me about it: you don't want to drink when you crave a drink because you (rightly) don't want to give in to (and be ruled by) the cravings. And you talk about other times when you didn't drink because you DIDN'T have the desire. Also well done.

But what motivation does that leave to drink on the days when you do drink? Surely it's because you want to? If so, aren't you giving in to the desire to drink on those days, even if it's not an intense "craving?" I have to presume you're not drinking on your drinking days if there's not a desire there.

I'd say it's all a level of craving or you wouldn't be trying to moderate. Therefore there's no day that you drink that isn't "giving in" on some level. So what's the victory in denying an intense craving as opposed to a mild one? And what happens if (when?) the "desire to drink" days start coming closer together?

I've heard it said here and think it's true that people without drinking problems don't spend this much time thinking about when and if they're going to drink. Isn't it exhuasting? I know it is for me.

Serper2014

Well first of all. I never said I didn't have a problem with alcohol. I do, I am in recovery. I am part of this forum. I do have a problem with it. So I'm not sure what point you were trying to make.

pupkin

And you spoke to some of this in your last post, which came in while I was writing...so in short I wish you well. I, like you, refused to believe that moderation could not be a recovery plan. Personally I've suffered for that belief. I hope differently for you.

Serper2014

Thanks for this great post. It's very logical and I'll do my best to address your questions.

So yeah you are right, If I am experiencing an intense craving while I'm at home on a thursday night, and I don't want to drink, then I don't want to drink. My rules are that I'm not allowed to drink at home alone nor am I allowed to drink two days in a row, those are rules that cannot be broken. Thanks, I am glad I didn't drink on thursday and glad that I didn't drink last night. However, as you pointed out, thursday was very difficult, even though I had no alcohol in the house, yet friday we had a 5 hour open bar, and the desire wasn't there at all. Crazy I know. But this does show that I have made some progress. We have work events with alcohol frequently and this was the first time that I didn't drink at one. Alcohol is one thing, free alcohol? -- a completely different beast.

You are also right, it's all about the level of craving and any night that I choose to drink is "giving in" on some level, but as long as "giving in" doesn't cause problems and as long as "giving in" is infrequent-- then it's ok. What happens if I start to give in more and more frequently? and it becomes a problem? Then I'll reevaluate my recovery and be the first one to admit that moderation didn't work for me--or that even with moderation the negatives outweigh the positives. But so far it's been 2 months, the positives of my program have outweighed the negatives and so far it seems to be working. I haven't been on here much... I've only created two threads in the last two months? And I haven't been lurking either... so it's safe to say that the amount of time I spend on here and thinking about alcohol has decreased quite a bit.

I believe it's true, people without drinking problems don't spend this much effort thinking about drinking or not drinking. Hopefully, one day I no longer need to come to SR to talk about these issues.

Serper2014

This might turn some heads, but I have to say it. I believe that if I was following a recovery program that the main goal is complete abstinence, then I would have posted yesterday afternoon about a work event that had 5 hour open bar. I believe that 90% of you would have.
1. Checked out how many days I had sober
2. Judged me based upon that timeframe
3. Told me that I was too early in recovery to go a place with free alcohol.

Right?

The thing with my moderation program is that I went to the work function with the knowledge that I would feel no guilt or shame if I ended up drinking at it. As part of my program I am allowed to drink at these work functions. It doesn't break any rules and last night I had 10 days in a row without a drink so according to my program, It would have been completely acceptable to drink at that work function. Knowing that I could drink if I wanted to, I believe, made it really really easy not to. Because last night was like "well yeah, I can drink tonight if I want to" "but do I want to" "no I don't want to" "well why not?" "because I can drink next week or something when I have less work to do in the morning"

where before It was like "you can't drink" "well now I really want to because I can't" "well don't then" "ugh this sucks but it will be worth it" " well if you drink tonight then you are throwing away your clean time" "yeah but if I drink tonight then it really will be the last time" "well then if it's going to be the last time then you should drink alot so the hangover teaches you a lesson" "yeah so this is it... this is my last time I'm gonna get trashed tonight and start over tomorrow" "ok that sounds good but this is the last time right?"

Maybe I'm crazy and just want what I can't have. I don't know I"m just talking hypothetically now... anyway I've got work to do... I'll probably create another thread in a month or so to let you know how I'm doing... See you in october SR! good luck to all!

pupkin

Serper, it definitely can't be said that you don't have a plan. Whether your plan is a misguided or a mistake isn't for us to determine, I believe, despite the wealth of shared experience here on SR. Personally I hope this plan works for you and am wishing you well.

I'll leave you with one bit from my own experience, for whatever it may be worth. When I was somewhere more or less where you are now--acknowledging that I had an issue with drinking but working to manage it--I implemented a "cheat day" plan: on Saturday I could drink as much as I wanted as long as I abstained completely the rest of the week (this strikes me as similar to the "moderating when but not how much" part of your plan, though there was more of a clockwork pattern to mine, which was perhaps part of my downfall).

Anyway, I succeeded with this for a good long while. But in retrospect I believe it was the beginning of my complete undoing.

Two variables: when and how much. Because I only moderated one of those--when--and didn't moderate the other, I drank more on my "cheat day" than I would have normally. Over time my tolerance very slowly crept up to a new threshold. And when I finally weakened at moderating the "when" variable, I was drinking at that new level more frequently.

Before long I was back to daily drinking at that level. And that was when the wheels finally came off. (. . .and rolled down the hill. . .across an empty field. . .into a ravine. . . .)

I haven't your previous posts, forgive me, so I don't know your history, but I can tell you that true physical dependence was a real game changer for me, and I got there while I thought I was moderating.

Everybody's different. Like I said: take it for what it's worth. Good luck to you and will hope to hear more from you in October.

ScottFromWI

You actually couldn't be more wrong. SR is a community dedicated to getting and living sober. If sobriery were your goal ( which is is not ) and you drank, you would recieve tips, support and opinions too. You, and only you, choose where you go, what you do and when you do it. Some may not agree, but that is just part of life.

My opinion, which you don't have to agree with, is that you are in massive denial of your problem. Read just your responses here and how vehemently you defend your moderation plan. If you truly were able to moderate your drinking, you would not need a plan nor support from a Sobriery group. Some have to learn the hard way, I hope you don't fall too far before you realize whats going on.

Serper2014

Well yeah I said I'd be back in october but I had to reply to this. It sounds like your plan was very similar to mine except that my plan doesn't have a defined "next drink date" I think thats good for two reasons. 1. I'm not abstaining most days just to "get" to my cheat day. Therefore I'm not teaching myself that alcohol is a reward for sobriety. 2. Since my "cheat" days are irregular I'm not forming a habit on a saturday night for example.


Right now I do not moderate the "how much" variable, but it is in my plan in the future to moderate that variable consciously or just a matter of having my tolerance getting lower and lower so that the how much/per episode is under the "binge level" which is 5 standard drinks for a male.

Just FYI when I drank 11 days ago. I had 6 beers. Now my normal amount when I was daily drinking was 8-10. So my tolerance has come down quite a bit over this summer. I can feel it. I got to 6 and I was like woah ok I'm done for the night lol. I've also lost 11lbs since I've been moderating so that definitely is a factor as well.

The other difference between you and I is that I've already gone through the physical dependence. It put me in the hospital on 10/23/13. That was the last time that I drank daily. So I am capable of learning to break habits. I haven't drank daily in almost an entire year, but alcohol was still causing me problems because I was drinking too frequently. The problem was that I didn't have the recovery tools I needed to moderate, nor had I taken the time to understand what the underlying reasons were for my drinking. I came here and I had a couple of nice periods of abstinence this summer. That, for me "reset the clock" if you will. It gave me the courage to say hey I can go a couple of weeks without drinking, and I've done that 4 or 5 times already. One thing that turned me off about complete abstinence is the shame and guilt I felt from "ruining clean time" or having to "start over counting days." If you have been a daily drinker for years and you make it 10 days, and then you drink, you don' start over, you don't lose those 10 days... you don't forget what you learned during those 10 days just because you drank one night. I quickly realized the length of sober time that you have only reflects your success if your goal is to abstain forever. It's a losing battle, statistically, that has been proven. Think of it like a soccer game where all you need to do is tie to go to the next round, but the other team needs to win....if there is 10 mins left in the game and the score is 1-1 you have a good chance of going to the next round, but if the game lasts FOREVER... It's only a matter of time before the other team scores and you have to go back to playing aggressive offense. That's what seems to happen with alcoholics, they abstain and abstain and get comfortable and no longer play defense and sometimes after years of sober time they relapse, and have to fight harder again. I don't want to spend my life trying to abstain, when moderating is not only significantly easier both mentally and physically, but moderation has at least for me in the last 2 months, been wonderful. Let's just say that I haven't been this happy or healthy in a long long time

Fly N Buy

I read parts of this - not all in detail. It's been discussed many, many time here and for years elsewhere.

Normal drinkers do not have to try and "moderate". Their drinking simply exists in this state continuously. Typically, hard drinkers or alcoholics focus on various attempts to reduce or limit.

Real Alcoholics simply cannot do this as most here have tried over the years.

Physical cravings are different than mental cravings = obsession of the mind, leading to the first drink. An alcoholic in active alcoholism may make a plan to limit on any occasion which usually does not work. For most, the obsession of the first drink leads to ??????? Never know.

It is a progressive disease. One does not recovery fully and drinking again usually keeps the ole spiral down going round and round.

A gent of 74 posted on a thread I started - Newly Sober over 50 - he posted stopped drinking for many years, started again and his life blew up. Now sober again. This is classic alcoholism.

An alcoholic may or not be in the state of alcoholism........they are still a pickle and can never again be a cucumber.

peace and good luck to all of us in life's journey.

Serper2014

I couldn't be more wrong? You are telling me that if my goal was to be sober and I was worried about drinking at a work event and I only had 10 clean days and I posted my worries... that the community as a whole wouldn't suggest that I not go to the event? Obviously, I'm not wrong because I've done that thread before and that is what was suggested to me.

I've also seen similar threads about going out to bars after having 6 months clean and the responses to those individuals were "well you have a lot of clean time so if you feel comfortable going to that environment then that is up to you. But if you feel the urge to drink leave!!!"

I mean I could spend the time and post links here to disprove that "I couldn't be more wrong"



I shouldn't even have to defend my plan. But others are curious about what I'm doing because they are concerned. I'm defending my plan because it's been working for two months for me. Will it still be working in a month? I don't know, I hope so, but I don't know for sure, but I do know that it's been working.

One thing I would also like to address is you said " If you truly were able to moderate your drinking, you would not need a plan nor support from a Sobriery group."

I get what you are trying to say, it's one of those things that sounds really intelligent..... until someone intelligent thinks about it. Think about it. I've been moderating for 2 months now. I've come here on two occasions in two months. So you are implying that I must be lying that moderation is working because I'm still coming here and... because I have rules about drinking? Because if I was truly capable of moderating, then I wouldn't need support? No that doesn't even make sense! I still need support! I still need encouragement. You say that if I was truly able to moderate I wouldn't need a plan? What does that even mean? I do need a plan! I was a daily drinker for almost 2 years. I don't ever want to go back to that! So I need a plan! I need support! I do have a drinking problem! But moderation IS working for me. I'm not saying that moderation means that I'm a normal drinker, or that I don't or never did have a problem with alcohol. I'm saying that by following the rules I've established, alcohol is no longer a negative component to my life. I don't even know what else to say to make it more clear.

Serper2014

Again, I never said that I was a normal drinker.
Normal drinkers do have to moderate both the amount and frequency of their drinking. For example a normal drinker may not have that extra drink because they have to drive home, or they have early work the next day.

I am not a normal drinker therefore I am attempting a recovery plan to reduce my consumption. Now you said that true alcholics simply cannot moderate. Well then I may not fit your description of a true alcoholic. Or by your definition I haven't been a true alcoholic for two months at least.

Sorry, I don't buy into the fact that once you perform a behavior habitually, you will never be able to not perform that behavior habitually. There is no scientific evidence for that-- brains aren't like cucumbers and pickles, brains are like very very hard clay.

I'm not trying to be hard headed or deny what you are saying, you are sharing to help me I understand that, but some aspects of what you said have no scientific support.

Dee74

I don't think thats moderation in the sense we mean it here...but anyway...just for arguments sake...

maybe the difference is Normies don't have to endlessly dissect that decision, Serper?
They don't feel the need to defend it either
D