Honest and Medical Insurance
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
Stuff like this is part of why recovery remains so stigmatized.
Also - since there is not an objective test - blood, X-ray, etc - that 'proves' a diagnosis of addiction, this is also why I simply do not discuss it with my physician. Granted, that's not a good idea for some who really do need medical attention, but these kind of attitudes and consequences are unfair and inappropriate.
I'm sorry you had this experience
Also - since there is not an objective test - blood, X-ray, etc - that 'proves' a diagnosis of addiction, this is also why I simply do not discuss it with my physician. Granted, that's not a good idea for some who really do need medical attention, but these kind of attitudes and consequences are unfair and inappropriate.
I'm sorry you had this experience
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,937
Originally Posted by FreeOwl 
Stuff like this is part of why recovery remains so stigmatized.
Also - since there is not an objective test - blood, X-ray, etc - that 'proves' a diagnosis of addiction, this is also why I simply do not discuss it with my physician. Granted, that's not a good idea for some who really do need medical attention, but these kind of attitudes and consequences are unfair and inappropriate.
Also - since there is not an objective test - blood, X-ray, etc - that 'proves' a diagnosis of addiction, this is also why I simply do not discuss it with my physician. Granted, that's not a good idea for some who really do need medical attention, but these kind of attitudes and consequences are unfair and inappropriate.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 476
Yikes, this story scares the crap out of me.......
As i've mentioned in some earlier posts, i went to my doctor in the early days regarding the severe insomnia from withdrawal. He asked me about my drinking and then promptly prescribed me some Ambien before sending me on my way. The whole thing lasted like 15 minutes.
I really hope he didn't enter any such "codes" into whatever BS "system" is used for all this medical stuff. I don't have health insurance right now, but at only 26 if i end up finally getting a policy down the road i would hate to find out my doc "sold me out" in a similar manner to what the OP described.
If that is the case i will be very very dissapointed......
I guess the lesson in all this is that we should always hold our cards close and be very careful about who we confide our personal information to, it seems even those who we should be able to trust can turn on us - even if un-intentionally.
On the plus side, if you are a Partner at a big bank firm you at least have the resources to hire a bunch of lawyers to sort this out for you - in this economy i would wager most people do not have that same luxury and instead just end up un-insured in a situation like this.
As i've mentioned in some earlier posts, i went to my doctor in the early days regarding the severe insomnia from withdrawal. He asked me about my drinking and then promptly prescribed me some Ambien before sending me on my way. The whole thing lasted like 15 minutes.
I really hope he didn't enter any such "codes" into whatever BS "system" is used for all this medical stuff. I don't have health insurance right now, but at only 26 if i end up finally getting a policy down the road i would hate to find out my doc "sold me out" in a similar manner to what the OP described.
If that is the case i will be very very dissapointed......
I guess the lesson in all this is that we should always hold our cards close and be very careful about who we confide our personal information to, it seems even those who we should be able to trust can turn on us - even if un-intentionally.
On the plus side, if you are a Partner at a big bank firm you at least have the resources to hire a bunch of lawyers to sort this out for you - in this economy i would wager most people do not have that same luxury and instead just end up un-insured in a situation like this.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 64
That is horrible!!! I think THIS is one reason as to why people don't go to Dr's for withdrawal meds, regardless of how dangerous it is. I went to see a Dr. In Oct. 2012 for alcohol abuse (she refused meds) and I haven't been dropped by my husband's health insurance or life insurance.( I was 25 at that time, and we have to renew every January. ) Would that mean she submitted a different code and my insurance doesn't know? I would see your gp again like you said, and definitely seek any recourse that you might be able to. Good luck!
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by jdooner
Well, I was notified today that they are canceling the entire policy due to lack of disclosure. My PCP entered a code for alcoholism for the Antebuse last year, even though it was her suggestion and I only took one pill. I have spent this afternoon with lawyers and it would seem I am uninsurable and the $70K I have paid - well that policy has been nullified.
Lack of disclosure indicates that when asked if there have been any of a long list of medical issues in the past 10 years, one says "no" when the answer is "yes".
If the answer is "yes" then the insurance company seeks information on the nature of the condition, treatment and current condition. They do not automatically deny a policy.
Many people do get policies even with previous serious conditions when the current situation is evaluated. True, they may pay higher premiums, but many many people with previous drug and alcohol conditions are able to buy life insurance.
People who try to with hold pertinent information or lie about their medical history are often denied policies.
The suggestion that people not seek medical help for their addiction, or that they lie to their physician to avoid possible later consequences, is dangerous medical advice.
Some people here NEED medical intervention, and not seeking it may cost them their lives...not just future insurability.
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: mountain states, Montana and Wyoming
Posts: 246
JDooner,
The original intention of this post was to alert people that this could indeed be a problem. I personally think you are beating yourself up needlessly IRT the definition of your problem be it a disease/addiction etc. But you will certainly work that out on your own, I know I have on my end.
I am in the middle of struggling like hell with the sobriety deal and looked into a script for antebuse just last week. Even though I have given advice to not share anything with your PCP is will come back to you, I did not make the connection with a drug for alcohol.
I am thankful you posted this as I certainly don't need this problem to complicate my life IRT finding health insurance for my family.
IMHO the system is broken and when someone is bettering themselves, then let that dog run. Insurance is a business and you did what you thought correct for the sake of your family and I saw no dishonesty. Life is not black and white most of the time. The actions/results are in the grey and the angles. I personally can see them not writing you if you had been in treatment for 6 weeks to 6 months and indeed had a quantifiable "issue". I could also see you having these problems if you took a test urine, blood, verbal and it came out that you had an "issue". But you did not fail or take a test, you took some advice and it causes you great anxiety.
I am sorry for this problem and thankful you addressed it so many of us will not make the same mistake, or heed the same advice.
I suppose one is "lucky" to have a these problem irt Multimillion dollar life insurance policies. But in reality they are as real as next months rent to some other people, they are a concern and often the result of arduous years of extrememly stressful work and good decision making.
Good luck
The original intention of this post was to alert people that this could indeed be a problem. I personally think you are beating yourself up needlessly IRT the definition of your problem be it a disease/addiction etc. But you will certainly work that out on your own, I know I have on my end.
I am in the middle of struggling like hell with the sobriety deal and looked into a script for antebuse just last week. Even though I have given advice to not share anything with your PCP is will come back to you, I did not make the connection with a drug for alcohol.
I am thankful you posted this as I certainly don't need this problem to complicate my life IRT finding health insurance for my family.
IMHO the system is broken and when someone is bettering themselves, then let that dog run. Insurance is a business and you did what you thought correct for the sake of your family and I saw no dishonesty. Life is not black and white most of the time. The actions/results are in the grey and the angles. I personally can see them not writing you if you had been in treatment for 6 weeks to 6 months and indeed had a quantifiable "issue". I could also see you having these problems if you took a test urine, blood, verbal and it came out that you had an "issue". But you did not fail or take a test, you took some advice and it causes you great anxiety.
I am sorry for this problem and thankful you addressed it so many of us will not make the same mistake, or heed the same advice.
I suppose one is "lucky" to have a these problem irt Multimillion dollar life insurance policies. But in reality they are as real as next months rent to some other people, they are a concern and often the result of arduous years of extrememly stressful work and good decision making.
Good luck
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,386
Originally Posted by Threshold
Being denied for lack of disclosure is NOT the same as being denied for having a condition.
Lack of disclosure indicates that when asked if there have been any of a long list of medical issues in the past 10 years, one says "no" when the answer is "yes".
If the answer is "yes" then the insurance company seeks information on the nature of the condition, treatment and current condition. They do not automatically deny a policy.
Many people do get policies even with previous serious conditions when the current situation is evaluated. True, they may pay higher premiums, but many many people with previous drug and alcohol conditions are able to buy life insurance.
People who try to with hold pertinent information or lie about their medical history are often denied policies.
The suggestion that people not seek medical help for their addiction, or that they lie to their physician to avoid possible later consequences, is dangerous medical advice.
Some people here NEED medical intervention, and not seeking it may cost them their lives...not just future insurability.
Lack of disclosure indicates that when asked if there have been any of a long list of medical issues in the past 10 years, one says "no" when the answer is "yes".
If the answer is "yes" then the insurance company seeks information on the nature of the condition, treatment and current condition. They do not automatically deny a policy.
Many people do get policies even with previous serious conditions when the current situation is evaluated. True, they may pay higher premiums, but many many people with previous drug and alcohol conditions are able to buy life insurance.
People who try to with hold pertinent information or lie about their medical history are often denied policies.
The suggestion that people not seek medical help for their addiction, or that they lie to their physician to avoid possible later consequences, is dangerous medical advice.
Some people here NEED medical intervention, and not seeking it may cost them their lives...not just future insurability.
I would have certainly posted something along the lines of what you posted if he had
D
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
I too don't believe JD is suggesting lying about whatever, or withholding whatever are worthy actions for himself or for any of us. I do think this thread is a good example of how we each need to understand our own responsibilities when it comes down to what is truth in honesty. There is a lot of room for grey to what is and isn't true on insurance matters, for all of us.
I think it also important that our personal doctors have truthful facts. Unfortunately, these same facts can often work against us on other matters when the information given is manipulated. I think what has happened to JD is more about manipulation of confidential information extrapolated to mean something else entirely by way of an unfortunate prescription for antabuse.
I think it also important that our personal doctors have truthful facts. Unfortunately, these same facts can often work against us on other matters when the information given is manipulated. I think what has happened to JD is more about manipulation of confidential information extrapolated to mean something else entirely by way of an unfortunate prescription for antabuse.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
I did not want to post on this thread originally because I lack relevant personal experience other than some health-related dilemmas whether or not to seek professional help for my drinking problem, and the usual moral dilemmas about anonymity. But I now have an opinion that may be relevant to this and other discussions on SR.
I think this is a highly controversial, subjective, and difficult question - both in the practical sense and in the moral sense. Inevitably, it invokes contradictory opinions. I think there are always so many twists and unpredictable factors in the system that it's very hard to foresee what the "right" decision will be, especially months or years later. Some people have had good and lucky experiences, others less so, and every situation is unique, just like our addictions. I think it's not really fair to criticize decisions in the context of this entire topic.
Also, putting this discussion in an even larger picture context regarding the actual seeking professional help question with detox and the rest of recovery - obviously the most common consensus on SR seems to be suggesting that people do seek medical help to be safe and give a better chance to their recovery. So recommendations that we are better to keep our problems from physicians at the time of need sounds dangerous in my view. It'll work for some people but probably better to not set it as a general suggestion.
JD had an unlucky case in my opinion and perhaps better not to imply bad decisions in it. Unfortunately corruption and other *** happens all the time.
I think this is a highly controversial, subjective, and difficult question - both in the practical sense and in the moral sense. Inevitably, it invokes contradictory opinions. I think there are always so many twists and unpredictable factors in the system that it's very hard to foresee what the "right" decision will be, especially months or years later. Some people have had good and lucky experiences, others less so, and every situation is unique, just like our addictions. I think it's not really fair to criticize decisions in the context of this entire topic.
Also, putting this discussion in an even larger picture context regarding the actual seeking professional help question with detox and the rest of recovery - obviously the most common consensus on SR seems to be suggesting that people do seek medical help to be safe and give a better chance to their recovery. So recommendations that we are better to keep our problems from physicians at the time of need sounds dangerous in my view. It'll work for some people but probably better to not set it as a general suggestion.
JD had an unlucky case in my opinion and perhaps better not to imply bad decisions in it. Unfortunately corruption and other *** happens all the time.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 4,860
I'll let JD -- who is my friend, one with a big heart -- speak for himself, but I feel quite comfortable agreeing that he would never suggest something that could have harmful consequences.
Questions over confidentiality, personal health information and insurance seem to come up from time to time here, and rightfully so. Having spent 21 years on the non-direct care side of health care (including some work on public policy, though not related to addiction/mental health) before moving to another sector last year, I know what a relentless obstacle course the system can be.
Hazelden, the large and respected treatment program headquartered in Minnesota, has a fairly robust public policy arm. (Hazelden and Betty Ford merged not too long ago.) In the resources section of their policy page, they include an organization called the Parity Implementation Coalition, website: parityispersonal dot org. I checked it out and it is a coalition of professional groups that describes itself as follows: "The Parity Implementation Coalition members advanced parity legislation for over fifteen years in an effort to end discrimination against individuals and families who seek services for mental health and substance use disorders and remain committed to its effective implementation."
Members are: the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry; the American Psychiatric Association; the American Society of Addiction Medicine; the Betty Ford Center; Cumberland Heights; Faces and Voices of Recovery; Hazelden; MedPro Billing; Mental Health America; the National Alliance on Mental Illness; the National Association of Psychiatric Health Systems; Teen Screen; and the Watershed Addiction Treatment Programs.
The site lists a number and an email address for individuals with questions. I'm not inclined to think this is an organization equipped to help people individually, nor was it designed to be, but it may be one that can direct people to other credible resources. I saw that some of their work has been championed by a former member of the U.S. House from the state I live in, a public servant I respected deeply (and voted for when I lived in his district). He is an alcoholic with decades of recovery and was probably the best friend the recovery community had in federal elected office before retiring. He remains an impassioned advocate for those facing addictions even after leaving the House.
Because of his work with the coalition, and Hazelden's involvement with it, I feel comfortable suggesting this could be a good starting point for people with questions.
Questions over confidentiality, personal health information and insurance seem to come up from time to time here, and rightfully so. Having spent 21 years on the non-direct care side of health care (including some work on public policy, though not related to addiction/mental health) before moving to another sector last year, I know what a relentless obstacle course the system can be.
Hazelden, the large and respected treatment program headquartered in Minnesota, has a fairly robust public policy arm. (Hazelden and Betty Ford merged not too long ago.) In the resources section of their policy page, they include an organization called the Parity Implementation Coalition, website: parityispersonal dot org. I checked it out and it is a coalition of professional groups that describes itself as follows: "The Parity Implementation Coalition members advanced parity legislation for over fifteen years in an effort to end discrimination against individuals and families who seek services for mental health and substance use disorders and remain committed to its effective implementation."
Members are: the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry; the American Psychiatric Association; the American Society of Addiction Medicine; the Betty Ford Center; Cumberland Heights; Faces and Voices of Recovery; Hazelden; MedPro Billing; Mental Health America; the National Alliance on Mental Illness; the National Association of Psychiatric Health Systems; Teen Screen; and the Watershed Addiction Treatment Programs.
The site lists a number and an email address for individuals with questions. I'm not inclined to think this is an organization equipped to help people individually, nor was it designed to be, but it may be one that can direct people to other credible resources. I saw that some of their work has been championed by a former member of the U.S. House from the state I live in, a public servant I respected deeply (and voted for when I lived in his district). He is an alcoholic with decades of recovery and was probably the best friend the recovery community had in federal elected office before retiring. He remains an impassioned advocate for those facing addictions even after leaving the House.
Because of his work with the coalition, and Hazelden's involvement with it, I feel comfortable suggesting this could be a good starting point for people with questions.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Thank you all. This thread began not about me but like all things personal become quite useful to me in my own needs today. I am surprisingly okay about all of this whatever the outcome and do feel that this is happening for a reason that I might not be aware of now. This is my faith at work.
Its funny, my first Company that I built and sold was born from a similar situation. I realized a need for something that was not available and created an algorithm that grew into a company and later sold to a Fortune 500. As I reflect upon this situation I wonder if the gears are turning here too. An industry focused on old methods and old ways of doing business failing to meet the needs of a changing society. This seems ripe for a classic Christensen's Innovator's Dilemma...hmm...
I thank you all for you inputs and responses and time to listen. In no way do I advocate withholding information from your Dr. or suggest not seeking professional medical advice. My goal in this thread is to provide my experience, a sample set of one, which is not statistically significant, so that someone else is better armed with more information to make an informed decision that they feel is best for them and their family if faced with a similar situation.
There will always be outliers and perhaps mine is just that. Lets hope this is the case.
Its funny, my first Company that I built and sold was born from a similar situation. I realized a need for something that was not available and created an algorithm that grew into a company and later sold to a Fortune 500. As I reflect upon this situation I wonder if the gears are turning here too. An industry focused on old methods and old ways of doing business failing to meet the needs of a changing society. This seems ripe for a classic Christensen's Innovator's Dilemma...hmm...
I thank you all for you inputs and responses and time to listen. In no way do I advocate withholding information from your Dr. or suggest not seeking professional medical advice. My goal in this thread is to provide my experience, a sample set of one, which is not statistically significant, so that someone else is better armed with more information to make an informed decision that they feel is best for them and their family if faced with a similar situation.
There will always be outliers and perhaps mine is just that. Lets hope this is the case.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 5,937
Originally Posted by Threshold
Being denied for lack of disclosure is NOT the same as being denied for having a condition.
Lack of disclosure indicates that when asked if there have been any of a long list of medical issues in the past 10 years, one says "no" when the answer is "yes".
If the answer is "yes" then the insurance company seeks information on the nature of the condition, treatment and current condition. They do not automatically deny a policy.
Lack of disclosure indicates that when asked if there have been any of a long list of medical issues in the past 10 years, one says "no" when the answer is "yes".
If the answer is "yes" then the insurance company seeks information on the nature of the condition, treatment and current condition. They do not automatically deny a policy.
Originally Posted by Threshold
Some people here NEED medical intervention, and not seeking it may cost them their lives...not just future insurability.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,697
If you handed a payment to an agent of the company by law the payment should have been acknowledged that day. As far as the company dropping you I would have your lawyer read every inch of the contract to make sure they can do that. Also I would file a complaint with your local department of insurance. Its the squeaky wheels that get the grease. Have the lawyer advise you whether you should fight up the chain yourself or if your best move is legal action. Your best bet is to go as high as you can. People on the lower ends may not have the ability to make changes.
It seems silly you would be dropped over 1 code but its always about the small fine print.
Good luck to you and congrats on your continued efforts in weight loss and bettering yourself.
It seems silly you would be dropped over 1 code but its always about the small fine print.
Good luck to you and congrats on your continued efforts in weight loss and bettering yourself.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Ireland
Posts: 25,826
I don't live in the US, but I find this absolutely insane!!
Makes me more grateful for not having to fear disclosing anything to my Dr as our health service here doesn't require an insurance policy!!
Makes me more grateful for not having to fear disclosing anything to my Dr as our health service here doesn't require an insurance policy!!
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by MythOfSisyphus
While I agree with this for the most part, the problem really is how nebulous the term "alcoholic" can be. I suppose if you actually go get a prescription for Antabuse you can put a check in that box, but how else can you define the term? I doubt there's a medical scan or test that can diagnose a drunk. If any form handed to me asked if I am an alcoholic or a habitual user of a controlled substance I would answer "no". I don't use illicit drugs and have never been diagnosed for any behavioral issues. If I don't ever drink again would it make any sense to identify as an alcoholic?
But if the application asks if you have been TREATED for alcohol or drug abuse in the past ten years, and you have then yes, it makes sense to identify that you have been.
I would not suggest anyone tell the insurance company they have a condition they don't. I would likewise suggest they DO disclose a condition they did receive treatment for.
Otherwise it is considered an attempt to commit insurance fraud and they will cancel or deny the policy. In fact on every application I have filled out, it says exactly that on the application.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
This is the newcomer's forum, and I agree that it is important to let people know that seeking treatment for drug and alcohol abuse is likely to affect the premiums you pay for life insurance.
It is important to point out that not disclosing that you have received such treatment in the past 5 or 10 years (depending on the application) can cost you even more, by rendering yourself uninsurable.
When I read the thread, I did get the sense that it was tending towards suggesting people not tell their doctors of their drug and alcohol problems. Maybe I am the only person who would read it and get that sense. This being the newcomers forum, I felt it was important to speak up.
I seem to be the only one who got that vibe, it was clearly my own misunderstanding.
It is important to point out that not disclosing that you have received such treatment in the past 5 or 10 years (depending on the application) can cost you even more, by rendering yourself uninsurable.
When I read the thread, I did get the sense that it was tending towards suggesting people not tell their doctors of their drug and alcohol problems. Maybe I am the only person who would read it and get that sense. This being the newcomers forum, I felt it was important to speak up.
I seem to be the only one who got that vibe, it was clearly my own misunderstanding.
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 1,022
Good post.
Putting blemishes into your medical history is risky. That stuff isn't always private, and there can be significant consequences to putting it out there. I don't think that angle is mentioned or understood near enough on these boards.
The trade-off may well be worth it, but to advise people to take a course of action without informing them of the possible negative consequences is .. well, let's say it's frowned on in my profession, leave it at that.
Putting blemishes into your medical history is risky. That stuff isn't always private, and there can be significant consequences to putting it out there. I don't think that angle is mentioned or understood near enough on these boards.
The trade-off may well be worth it, but to advise people to take a course of action without informing them of the possible negative consequences is .. well, let's say it's frowned on in my profession, leave it at that.
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