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Maturity- Making up for Lost Time

Old 08-21-2014, 04:36 PM
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Maturity- Making up for Lost Time

Mind if I bore you a bit? Here I am, 87 years of age. Most of my friends are dead now. No dementia yet but my memory is becoming less efficient. Takes longer to recall some pretty stupid things. The good part is that since getting some sobriety things really started to open up. Became more creative, better at doing the stuff I should have been doing all along. And making up for lost time on my maturity. Learning a lot more about myself and other things. Gaining a little bit of what I pretentiously call “wisdom”, as distinct from mere “knowledge” (a big thing these days what with the internet). Some of you may not agree but, although I am not “religious” in any conventional sense (“”church” turns me off) I feel myself drifting into strange territory, as if there’s something or someone there behind my back, peering over my shoulder, watching over me. A spooky feeling particularly when I began to write some memoirs about a grandfather whom I especially loved and who loved me, a cousin whom I loved so much, killed at 19 years of age in a car crash. Spooky feelings. Increasingly I have thoughts about death, since despite my recent valve replacement I’m not going to last too long. Last enough I guess to outlive the dog. He’s eight now. Maybe half way along, if he’s lucky, but this breed (Eng. Cocker) starts to get in trouble around twelve. He’s taught me more about love than I’ve ever learned. Hope we’ll meet in Heaven but, if not, then we’ll shake paws and say, “It’s been a privilege, Sir!” as the Brits do. I’ve drifted into a bit of Buddhism, Taoism, and those folks don’t necessarily believe in Heaven in any conventional sense. Nirvana, perhaps, but that may be nothingness. I do like the notion of a Bodhisattva, giving up Nirvana to return earthwise to help others. Corresponds somewhat with the Christian idea of Sainthood. Is there something there, or someone, helping us? Maybe you have some thoughts on this. Hope some of you may avoid “Higher Power” speculation and focus on what may be merely a whisper on the wind, a fleeting glimpse of something, a momentary visit by a hummingbird, a curious fragrance in the air.

W.
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Old 08-21-2014, 04:42 PM
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Lovely post wpainter. I had no idea you were 87! Your post was not boring at all..quite the contrary. I don't know how I define the benevolent energy I look to. It is both within and all around and provides the message of love from so many faiths and sources. I find great wisdom in both Western and Eastern faiths ..but I probably use Jesus as reference to a pretty all round great guy more often than anything.

I do believe our spirituality seems aligned...

Any message of love is one I'm down with.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by wpainterw View Post
Hope some of you may avoid “Higher Power” speculation and focus on what may be merely a whisper on the wind, a fleeting glimpse of something, a momentary visit by a hummingbird, a curious fragrance in the air.

W.
I will not forget this. Wisdom, indeed.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:54 PM
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I've never read a boring post from you W. I loved reading those wonderful thoughts.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:03 PM
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W - your posts are poignant, thoughtful and full of kindness and yes, wisdom!

A mentor of mine told me at the beginning of my professional career (when at the ripe age of 25 I thought my graduate degree made me the smartest person on planet Earth) that there is NO substitution for time and experience. I didn't fully understand it then, but over the past 20 years I've come to realize this is a most truthful piece of advice.

Your time and experience is a precious gift and I am so grateful that you share it with us your perspective and thoughts are priceless. Thank you from the bottom of my heart ❤️

Be well friend - you are creating a legacy of kindness and most important, providing hope for many who feel hopeless as we battle our addictions and live sober.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:08 PM
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Your posts never bore, W! Although I'm just over half your age death is a...preoccupation seems to strong a word...maybe a concern of mine. I feel the shadow of mortality, if not of death. I am not religious which can be hard at times. I wish I had the certain comfort of heaven and the fellowship of all those who also believe. For me Truth will have to suffice.

I'm 100% in favor of spirituality. And I can certain appreciate the idea of developing maturity and trying to make up for lost time. Many years ago I was married but I've been divorced for 20-some years now. Came close to it again a few years but that's about it. I have no kids. That kind of throws off the whole "maturity" timeline. Most people my age have kids in college, or maybe even graduated. It's not uncommon to have grandkids by 45. So many of the things that are milestone and waypoints of the typical American life are absent in mine. Some of this was conscious choice on my part, some was circumstance.

At any rate, I find myself 22 months sober, and in a lot of ways living the life of a 22 year old! Unlike a 22 year old I don't have fifty probable years ahead of me to build my life. My dad passed at 67, and his dad at 42. At 45 I might have 20 years left or I could be on borrowed time already!

What is maturity? I think about that a lot. To me now it's being sober, paying my bills, managing my career and contemplating my "second act". In my drinking days it seemed a forgone conclusion that I would remain single and just slog through my life drunk until just like a worn out clock my body just stopped.

You have such a unique perspective, Bill. It seems like you've lived such a good life up til now, plus it feels like you still have a lot of good life ahead. From where I sit it appears that you live a fully realized life, one that is actively contemplated and lived "in the moment". That might be the highest purpose one can hope to strive for.

The vanity in me would like to leave a "legacy" of some sort, some mark that I was ever here at all. Do you think about that? Certainly you seem to have made the world a better place than you found it. You have raised sons, had a good marriage (if I understand your other posts) and have contributed a lot to the many members of SR.

Lengthening shadows perhaps make looking back unavoidable; it's true at 87 that no matter how optimistic there are more days behind than ahead. And I can't claim to be wise, having proven repeatedly to have a broad streak of idiocy. But it does seem to me that whether you're 87 or 27 the primary place to be looking is on the road ahead of you. That approach has kept me sane (or as close to sane as I'm likely to get).

Now that I'm sober every day- I really mean than! Every. Day. - is a discovery and a treasure to examine anew. I can't imagine ever giving up sobriety now that I have found it and I wouldn't trade the years ahead for the ones I left behind.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:09 PM
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BTW, I do feel that when I die I will return to where and I what I was before my birth. I can't imagine any Universe where that could be a bad fate.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:31 PM
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Thanks so much from the bottom of my heart for all your replies and particularly the most recent ones from Iwillwin and Myth of Sisyphus. Myth, you mentioned that in "vanity" you might like to leave behind a legacy, something to show that you were here. That is what, in my vanity (I admit it), I have done: an extensive memoir, accompanied by favorite quotes from Shakespeare, the Bible, some poetry and other things I have written, all now expensively bound and titled "Legacy"! I call it my "Ozymandias Project" after Shelley's poem about the vain Pharaoh who built two massive effigies of himself, which eventually shattered and stood in the endless desert. Yes, I am vain yet want to leave behind something, like those graffiti written by G.I.'s throughout Europe in WW2 saying "Kilroy Was Here!"- men who thought quite accurately that they were going to their death. If there is no Heaven or hereafter it is no small thing to disappear into nothingness, to cease to exist as "me", to leave all this behind. No small thing. A look into the abyss.
Some have thought me happy since sobering up. Yes, for the most part. I cannot deny it. Moments of extreme happiness. Yet there have been moments otherwise. And loneliness. As many have no doubt found, sobriety brought new challenges both to me and to my wife. We were both codependent and when I achieved sobriety, our relationship changed. Trust began to erode away in 1992 and during the past two and a half years we have been fighting with one another occasionally, usually about my wife's persistent health concerns. We have been married for 59 years. Oddly, or perhaps not oddly, we were happier and trusted one another more when I was drinking than when I became sober. Yet we shall never part. I owe so much to her, sticking by me all those years. And, despite my growing loneliness I have memories of happier times. Finally, I have gradually been developing something of what, in my vanity, I call wisdom.
I end with a few of my favorite quotes:

The greatest achievement is selflessness.
The greatest worth is self-mastery.
The greatest quality is seeking to serve others.
The greatest precept is continual awareness.
The greatest medicine is the emptiness of everything.
The greatest action is not conforming with the worlds ways.
The greatest magic is transmuting the passions.
The greatest generosity is non-attachment.
The greatest goodness is a peaceful mind.
The greatest patience is humility.
The greatest effort is not concerned with results.
The greatest meditation is a mind that lets go.
The greatest wisdom is seeing through appearances.

Atisha (Atisa Dipankara Shrijnana (Ôtish Dipôngkor Srigên) (980-1052 CE)-Tibetan teacher)

“What is the price of Experience [?]
Do men buy it for a song
Or wisdom for a dance in the street?
No it is bought with the price of all
that a man hath [,]
His house, his wife, his children [.]
Wisdom is sold in the desolate market
where none come to buy.”
William Blake- “Vala” p. 35 lines 11-14

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, until, in our despair, against our own will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.

Aeschylus-lines 179-182 of the Agamemnon,

W.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by wpainterw View Post
Mind if I bore you a bit? Here I am, 87 years of age. Most of my friends are dead now. No dementia yet but my memory is becoming less efficient. Takes longer to recall some pretty stupid things. The good part is that since getting some sobriety things really started to open up. Became more creative, better at doing the stuff I should have been doing all along. And making up for lost time on my maturity. Learning a lot more about myself and other things. Gaining a little bit of what I pretentiously call “wisdom”, as distinct from mere “knowledge” (a big thing these days what with the internet). Some of you may not agree but, although I am not “religious” in any conventional sense (“”church” turns me off) I feel myself drifting into strange territory, as if there’s something or someone there behind my back, peering over my shoulder, watching over me. A spooky feeling particularly when I began to write some memoirs about a grandfather whom I especially loved and who loved me, a cousin whom I loved so much, killed at 19 years of age in a car crash. Spooky feelings. Increasingly I have thoughts about death, since despite my recent valve replacement I’m not going to last too long. Last enough I guess to outlive the dog. He’s eight now. Maybe half way along, if he’s lucky, but this breed (Eng. Cocker) starts to get in trouble around twelve. He’s taught me more about love than I’ve ever learned. Hope we’ll meet in Heaven but, if not, then we’ll shake paws and say, “It’s been a privilege, Sir!” as the Brits do. I’ve drifted into a bit of Buddhism, Taoism, and those folks don’t necessarily believe in Heaven in any conventional sense. Nirvana, perhaps, but that may be nothingness. I do like the notion of a Bodhisattva, giving up Nirvana to return earthwise to help others. Corresponds somewhat with the Christian idea of Sainthood. Is there something there, or someone, helping us? Maybe you have some thoughts on this. Hope some of you may avoid “Higher Power” speculation and focus on what may be merely a whisper on the wind, a fleeting glimpse of something, a momentary visit by a hummingbird, a curious fragrance in the air.

W.
That feeling over your shoulder I know that well when u turn around sharp and poof nothing but it defiantly was something and this post is amazing

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Old 08-22-2014, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by wpainterw View Post
Thanks so much from the bottom of my heart for all your replies and particularly the most recent ones from Iwillwin and Myth of Sisyphus. Myth, you mentioned that in "vanity" you might like to leave behind a legacy, something to show that you were here. That is what, in my vanity (I admit it), I have done: an extensive memoir, accompanied by favorite quotes from Shakespeare, the Bible, some poetry and other things I have written, all now expensively bound and titled "Legacy"! I call it my "Ozymandias Project" after Shelley's poem about the vain Pharaoh who built two massive effigies of himself, which eventually shattered and stood in the endless desert. Yes, I am vain yet want to leave behind something, like those graffiti written by G.I.'s throughout Europe in WW2 saying "Kilroy Was Here!"- men who thought quite accurately that they were going to their death. If there is no Heaven or hereafter it is no small thing to disappear into nothingness, to cease to exist as "me", to leave all this behind. No small thing. A look into the abyss.
I should think that memoir would be a fascinating read! I hope this shan't make you feel older still, so forgive me, but even as a very young boy I was fascinated with the stories told by my elders. I had one great aunt that was a young girl when the Wright Brothers flew! Can you imagine? A few times every year we would visit her at the nursing home. Her body was frail and she was nearly blind but her mind was sharp as a tack (this would have been in the early 80's). I would listen enthralled at her stories of the Dirty Thirties, the two Great Wars, etc. Even as a child I felt this powerful bond to history and lamented the loss of the wisdom and the "lore" of bygone days.

It would be great if your memoirs were ever made available! I'd be interested in reading them.

A legacy...I think we all want that. Again, at the risk of sounding fatalistic we all are living out our endless numbered days. Billions of people have gone to death before us and billions will go after us. And we all have to face it. I'm not "old" perhaps but neither am I young. I don't look forward to death but I don't precisely fear it either. I think I shall miss life, if anything remains of me to do the missing of things. There's a lot of pain in the world but so much goodness. My heart swells to bursting with it sometimes.

I don't know what becomes of us, but going to where ever or whatever my Dad did, that also can't be all bad. Perhaps the essence of us returns to the Universe and mingles once again with the star stuff from whence we all came.


Originally Posted by wpainterw View Post
Some have thought me happy since sobering up. Yes, for the most part. I cannot deny it. Moments of extreme happiness. Yet there have been moments otherwise. And loneliness. As many have no doubt found, sobriety brought new challenges both to me and to my wife. We were both codependent and when I achieved sobriety, our relationship changed. Trust began to erode away in 1992 and during the past two and a half years we have been fighting with one another occasionally, usually about my wife's persistent health concerns. We have been married for 59 years. Oddly, or perhaps not oddly, we were happier and trusted one another more when I was drinking than when I became sober. Yet we shall never part. I owe so much to her, sticking by me all those years. And, despite my growing loneliness I have memories of happier times. Finally, I have gradually been developing something of what, in my vanity, I call wisdom.

W.

I have known loneliness in my life but it's been a while. I think it's part and parcel of being a human being. Relationships are so complicated. I have an uncle very close to me that was a very bad drinker for years. It's almost beyond belief that his wife stuck by him. Eventually he got sober, probably 30 years ago now. They're still together but almost like brother and sister now. They've had separate rooms for several decades. There is certainly love there and they're family but they aren't close like my folks were. Either they grew apart of relationship was pushed too far by the years of drinking.

59 years! That's really awesome. I suppose there will be many ups and downs in that length of time. I do hope sentimentally that you both still enjoy each others company, even if it's not always rosy.

I don't wish to be too nosy but I hope your relationship with your boys is good. Dad and I had a rocky relationship in my youth but we found our common ground by the time I was maybe 30. Lots of good years. He passed due to some health problems that he refused to address over many years but he had 67 pretty good years. He and my mom were like teenagers together, totally inseparable for 45 years.

I guess that his legacy; the memories and the love we all have for him. This sounds like a cliche but he will live on as long as I, my mom, my siblings and his grandkids live.


Originally Posted by wpainterw View Post
Mind if I bore you a bit? Here I am, 87 years of age. Most of my friends are dead now.
Oh, but so many new friends here! I suspect you have no idea how much of an impact you've had on so many. Never think that that voice in the wilderness goes unheard!
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:38 AM
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Myth of Sisyphus: Thanks for your kind comments. In response to your inquiry (it's certainly not "nosy") my relationship with my kids is reasonably good but again there are family issues. My younger son has been divorced twice, had a child with each ex wife. The latest ex wife will not speak to me or my wife and her daughter is inclined to see us very seldom even though they live only five miles away. The oldest son was also divorced but remarried the same person. He is very loving and supportive to us and we relate very well to his children but again there are issues with his spouse which I would prefer to remain confidential.
Despite your kind comments about my "Legacy" I do fear that there is some vanity there on my part. Indeed, the introduction to that mighty Ozymandias-like monument contains a suggestion that it may be vanity. "Vanity, vanity, all is vanity..." begins the Book of Ecclesiastes. So true.
So here I am, grown old and lonely, displacing all my anxieties on excessive love for my dog. Seeking escape in Email, memories and anxious sleep. "The times are out of joint..." as Hamlet said. The 1930's, when I was a boy, had no violence filled TV, little divorce, children reasonably well behaved and respectful of their elders, jazz but no hard or "gangsta rock", practically no "recreational drug" use by kids or even by their elders, no violent computer games such as "Grand theft Auto". Yes, it was a racist, anti semitic culture where women were largely subordinate to men, things which today are completely inappropriate, but still lingering in some respects. There was little or less terrorism. The nuclear bomb had yet to be invented. Each generation has looked back to the "Good Old Days". I confess I do so too. But I am old, tired, lonely and sometimes I wonder whether my greatest asset is my limited life expectancy. Yet, as I might have said already, in the words of Robert Frost, "I have promises to keep. And miles to go before I sleep..."

W.
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:51 AM
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Hi wpainterw. Down here in the corner of the state there are quite a few over 70 attendees of meetings who if listening to you speak would be bobbing their heads in identification.
Great post!
BE WELL
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:07 AM
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I'm not sure that email and forums are just escape. I think they're an evolution of community. Really I think it's almost not even death we fear so much as loneliness and disconnection from people. Humans are such social creates, and for every way we invent to network we invent another way to keep people at bay.

When you speak of the "good old days" I also think of eons gone by. Now we have the internet, GPS-driven combines, space travel etc etc. We also have miraculous medicine; the idea of taking my heart out and putting it in you and having it work would have been sorcery even a hundred years ago.

But I think we have also lost a lot. Humans once lived very close to the Earth but also close to each other. Western societies in particular are so egoistic, so self-centered. Not that we're selfish per se just self absorbed. Many Eastern cultures are much more focused on society and social interactions as opposed to just the self. I expect that 100,000 years ago all civilizations and social groups were this way.

I once read a good quote, our fear is not such much that we will die but that no one will notice we're gone. That's pretty profound in its way.

I guess it's the late hour, and some things that are going on in my life, that make me a bit melancholy today. It would be great to be able to turn the clock back forty years, just for a little while, and sit by my dad's knee while he lures for fly fishing. But time marches relentlessly forward.
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:16 AM
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Hi William.

I always watch for your postings, because I always get something very rich from them, and you write and speak so beautifully. I hope you publish those memoirs, as I would love to read them.

I think the love of a dog is one of the most beautiful things. They are almost always simple , devoted, and selfless , and its so refreshing, you know?
And- you are as wonderful as your dog thinks you to be, by the way.

I could listen to you all day. I hope today brings a special smile, laughter, and those simple, but perfect joys of nature that you are so good at expressing. How were the lilies this year?

hugs,
chicory
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by chicory View Post
Hi William.

I always watch for your postings, because I always get something very rich from them, and you write and speak so beautifully. I hope you publish those memoirs, as I would love to read them.

I think the love of a dog is one of the most beautiful things. They are almost always simple , devoted, and selfless , and its so refreshing, you know?
And- you are as wonderful as your dog thinks you to be, by the way.

I could listen to you all day. I hope today brings a special smile, laughter, and those simple, but perfect joys of nature that you are so good at expressing. How were the lilies this year?

hugs,
chicory
Chicory: The lilies were beautiful as ever. These white lilies, ever since the Middle Ages or earlier, have been a symbol for purity, holiness. Every good wish to you.

W.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by wpainterw View Post
merely a whisper on the wind
I think we're just dust in it. Seems the trick is to just relax and enjoy the ride.
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Old 08-22-2014, 05:28 AM
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Great post as always!!
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Old 08-24-2014, 01:06 AM
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This reminds me of words from a Ben Howard song

Maybe you were the ocean and I was just a stone
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