Difficulty with AA
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 48
Difficulty with AA
Hi All,
I'm beginning to have concerns about AA. These concerns are driving me out of meetings and away from people who espouse the program's benefits. I outline the concerns below:
1. AA's message of victory in hopelessness has made me afraid of myself.
2. AA wants me to believe that only a power greater than myself can restore me to sanity. This exonerates me from using my will-power to stop. People can get sober on their own; however, the Big Book would say they aren't true alcoholics, just hard drinkers. I cannot accept this premise. If a person is impelled to stop drinking, either because their lives have become unmanageable or because of a medical imperative, then these people are alcoholics. Some cases will involve physical withdrawal, but I believe that the real issue is behavioral. Genetic arguments absolve someone from the consequences of their irresponsibility.
3. AA encourages herd mentality as stated by Dr. Foster Kennedy in the Medical View on AA in the Big Book. I feel that this mentality discourages people from being honest because they fear not fitting in. AA has this effect on me. I often leave meetings feeling more frustrated and depressed than I would have felt had I not gone. My friend who I asked to be my sponsor told me that he gets what he needs from meetings by sharing what he needs to share. As a newly sober man, I can't stomach the ego stroking, the banal gratitude or the apologies for coming late. One of the reasons I drank was because I felt isolated and misunderstood - the consequence of that realization was a heightened sense of isolation and misunderstanding. Being in meetings where people spend 5 minutes thanking the speaker and talking about how grateful they are makes me feel more even more isolated and misunderstood. I don't feel comfortable raising my hand and telling the speaker that I didn't relate to his/her share and that I'm frustrated about how AA is making me feel worse about my behavior. I also don't want to grab a stranger's hand and recite a paragraph that involves the word "God."
4. AA recommends (instructs) me to find a sponsor who has something I want. I have a sponsor, and he's become a close friend. But he doesn't have what I want. In fact, I have yet to meet anyone who has what I want (in the sense I'm inferring from AA literature).
These have been ideas that have been weighing me down. Can anyone with more experience chime in and tell me if this makes any sense? Thanks
I'm beginning to have concerns about AA. These concerns are driving me out of meetings and away from people who espouse the program's benefits. I outline the concerns below:
1. AA's message of victory in hopelessness has made me afraid of myself.
2. AA wants me to believe that only a power greater than myself can restore me to sanity. This exonerates me from using my will-power to stop. People can get sober on their own; however, the Big Book would say they aren't true alcoholics, just hard drinkers. I cannot accept this premise. If a person is impelled to stop drinking, either because their lives have become unmanageable or because of a medical imperative, then these people are alcoholics. Some cases will involve physical withdrawal, but I believe that the real issue is behavioral. Genetic arguments absolve someone from the consequences of their irresponsibility.
3. AA encourages herd mentality as stated by Dr. Foster Kennedy in the Medical View on AA in the Big Book. I feel that this mentality discourages people from being honest because they fear not fitting in. AA has this effect on me. I often leave meetings feeling more frustrated and depressed than I would have felt had I not gone. My friend who I asked to be my sponsor told me that he gets what he needs from meetings by sharing what he needs to share. As a newly sober man, I can't stomach the ego stroking, the banal gratitude or the apologies for coming late. One of the reasons I drank was because I felt isolated and misunderstood - the consequence of that realization was a heightened sense of isolation and misunderstanding. Being in meetings where people spend 5 minutes thanking the speaker and talking about how grateful they are makes me feel more even more isolated and misunderstood. I don't feel comfortable raising my hand and telling the speaker that I didn't relate to his/her share and that I'm frustrated about how AA is making me feel worse about my behavior. I also don't want to grab a stranger's hand and recite a paragraph that involves the word "God."
4. AA recommends (instructs) me to find a sponsor who has something I want. I have a sponsor, and he's become a close friend. But he doesn't have what I want. In fact, I have yet to meet anyone who has what I want (in the sense I'm inferring from AA literature).
These have been ideas that have been weighing me down. Can anyone with more experience chime in and tell me if this makes any sense? Thanks
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Cambridge, MA
Posts: 48
Hi Dee, I have. And they tell me that it's normal to be disgusted. I don't want to feel disgusted. I'm don't feel a compulsion to drink right now, and the fact that I'm not going by the AA codex is freaking me out.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: midwest
Posts: 484
I don't have the sobriety to really speak on this with any authority but I go to a weekly meeting (been twice so far) and take what I want from it and leave the rest. If I give in and drink I may start following it more closely. Simply put, I want a better life, deserve it and am giving it to myself!! 
the meetings keep me involved with my recovery and focused
the meetings keep me involved with my recovery and focused
Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Washington
Posts: 879
Hi. I see you're in Cambridge. I just looked it up and LifeRing has a meeting every Friday (too late for today) in Belmont. You may prefer that . While I use some of AA's tools I do not go to meetings and do understand much of what you're saying. You might like LifeRing! I wish there were a meeting in my area.
. While I use some of AA's tools I do not go to meetings and do understand much of what you're saying. You might like LifeRing! I wish there were a meeting in my area.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,386
Well, you sound like your mind is pretty made up its not for you....
You might get better results with another method?
There's many different approaches and methods of recovery around - here's some links to some of the main players, including but not limited to AA:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html
I recommend you visit the Secular Connections forum if you think you may benefit from a non 12 step approach.
D
You might get better results with another method?
There's many different approaches and methods of recovery around - here's some links to some of the main players, including but not limited to AA:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html
I recommend you visit the Secular Connections forum if you think you may benefit from a non 12 step approach.
D
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 585
Hello Ythill
I have been to AA before. I felt the same way about feeling worse when it was over then when I walked in. I kept getting this woe is me feeling. I don't want to be woe is me. I want total victory over my alcohol problem. I am a man of faith so the God part did not bother me.
I am not slamming AA as I know people that work it and have had success but its just not for me. SR is my support along with one close friend who is a non drinker. There are many options out there if AA is not for you. Take care
I have been to AA before. I felt the same way about feeling worse when it was over then when I walked in. I kept getting this woe is me feeling. I don't want to be woe is me. I want total victory over my alcohol problem. I am a man of faith so the God part did not bother me.
I am not slamming AA as I know people that work it and have had success but its just not for me. SR is my support along with one close friend who is a non drinker. There are many options out there if AA is not for you. Take care
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic USA
Posts: 2,441
Welcome to SR YT. There are options other than AA and the 12-Steps, and there are many people on this site who obtained sobriety without AA. And there are many people world-wide who have stopped drinking without AA. If AA isn't for you, try another approach.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
I felt the same...I left and tried other programs. I ended up returning but that is just my experience. I felt the same way you did but much of this was me in my case. So I would suggest trying a self will based program like RR and see how it works for you. If things are more difficult then maybe you can try another or return to AA.
I do wonder if your post is more about getting support from this community rather than asking for suggestions.
In an event I wish you the best though.
I do wonder if your post is more about getting support from this community rather than asking for suggestions.
In an event I wish you the best though.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Northeast, US
Posts: 2,073
You don't need AA. Buuut....I felt and feel the same as you, and I think for some people, probably me included, the first year would be really helpful. It just gives you a place to go and if your sponsor is cool it gives you a person to share in your victories and provides accountability (no one else around will really get it). Also the people in the meetings can share in your victory. I hate herd mentality. I have never done anything they way I was supposed to. I'm a super creative, and a total out of the box thinker, a questioner, and someone who tends to change systems, truly improving them, rather than just going along. That is a real problem when trying to get by in society.
My first thoughts are, 'why are they doing it this way when if you move step 5 to step 2 and remove steps 7 and 9, you can arrive at the same conclusion with better accuracy and in less time?' Even if that makes the system work 100% of the time and is 200% more efficient, my absolute inability to move from 1-10 or A-Z in order has crippled me.
Instead of just towing the line and getting through school I had to do something completely differently. I redesigned syllabi, made them 4 times more challenging, and got them approved by the professor. I realized, when I was totally burnt out and a complete drunk, that I was going to show up, do as little as possible for a C and get the heck out of there. Thankfully a 4.0 gpa for years balanced that out and bought me a ton of slack with the professors who saw I was just fried.
I think AA tries to break you(me) of that ridiculousness. It has prevented me from getting every internship and job I've gone for. The hiring person thinks, 'we can't have this guy in here, he's too 'aggressive,' gung ho, he'll never play by the rules.' It is only an asset for a total lone wolf. But in this society, it's an utter curse. I have no clue why I think this way. Maybe my depression and learning disabilities forced me to form new neural pathways that allow me to do things, but that are totally out of sink with how 'regular' folks operate.
My first thoughts are, 'why are they doing it this way when if you move step 5 to step 2 and remove steps 7 and 9, you can arrive at the same conclusion with better accuracy and in less time?' Even if that makes the system work 100% of the time and is 200% more efficient, my absolute inability to move from 1-10 or A-Z in order has crippled me.
Instead of just towing the line and getting through school I had to do something completely differently. I redesigned syllabi, made them 4 times more challenging, and got them approved by the professor. I realized, when I was totally burnt out and a complete drunk, that I was going to show up, do as little as possible for a C and get the heck out of there. Thankfully a 4.0 gpa for years balanced that out and bought me a ton of slack with the professors who saw I was just fried.
I think AA tries to break you(me) of that ridiculousness. It has prevented me from getting every internship and job I've gone for. The hiring person thinks, 'we can't have this guy in here, he's too 'aggressive,' gung ho, he'll never play by the rules.' It is only an asset for a total lone wolf. But in this society, it's an utter curse. I have no clue why I think this way. Maybe my depression and learning disabilities forced me to form new neural pathways that allow me to do things, but that are totally out of sink with how 'regular' folks operate.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 64
Hi Ythill
Thanks for this insightful post. A lot of valuable observations here. I could relate very strongly to what you posted.
A bit about me...I was sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, and after trying for a long time to moderate my drinking and/or "white-knuckle" my way through sobriety, I decided to try AA. I went to two meetings in the span of a week and decided it was not for me -- I was very uncomfortable with the religious language. I didn't like the "sharing," because I often could not relate and a lot of it was just people ranting and riffing about what happened during their day. I thought the steps were basically ridiculous -- except for the first step. I felt basically defeated by alcohol. I could not see how I could recover on my own, because every time I tried to stop, I would eventually change my mind -- decide that it wasn't worth it to stop.
Ultimately I went about ten weeks without meetings or a plan of any kind, had a slip, and went back to AA, to a different meeting. It took me at least a year of irregular attendance at meetings, long, drawn-out arguments with AA members, and internal turmoil before something "clicked" about AA for me, and I started to feel like I belonged there.
I was not an instant convert, but in time I realized that the program has not only saved my bacon but given me a life worth living. So I want to go through some of the points you made and offer a different perspective. Take what you want and leave the rest -- as many have already said, there is no one way to recovery. If you don't like AA, you can try something else.
I want to gently draw your attention to the construction of these sentences -- they are passive. In this view, you are being affected by something -- you are the object of the verb. So long as you are passive, you are basically screwed, because you do not acknowledge your power to respond differently to things. You are at the whim of circumstances and situations. Just change the subject and the complement of the sentence -- "This emotion makes me feel like drinking." In some cases, you will be unable to make the emotion go away. So what are you going to do?
I think basically what I am suggesting is that we need to be accountable for own thoughts and feelings. It is not someone else's responsibility, for example, to make their share in a meeting relatable to me, or to anyone else. It's my responsibility to support my own recovery by listening for the things that will help me to stay sober today.
If you want to experiment with using your will power to stay sober -- start here. See how you can change your perceptions of and reactions to circumstances and situations. One of the big tools in the AA toolkit is learning to see our part in things -- see how our perspective fundamentally changes the situation. If you want to, you can continue to look for situations that won't cause you to feel isolated and misunderstood. But ultimately that ball is always going to be in your court -- you ultimately decide how to respond to feelings and thoughts that arise. Recovery is absolutely impossible if we do not learn to change our relationship to the thoughts, for example, that tell us we ought to drink, or that drinking will help us feel better. It doesn't matter what program of recovery you use, that's the crux of it, as far as I can tell. We have to learn to resist some of these things, to see them differently, to see our choice in the matter. Thoughts and feelings will come, and then we have to respond to them appropriately -- in a way that best serves our recovery.
For a very, very long time, I have used self-pity as a way of making myself feel better, and feel special. It can actually feel good to feel bad -- nobody else suffers the way I do, nobody can relate to me, there's nothing for me in this world. That makes me special. AA has helped me to see these things, see the ways that choose to feel unwell, because it serves my interests in a roundabout way.
You wrote a lot of interesting and valid points, and there is a lot more to talk about. I'm not sure if what I have already written will resonate with you so I won't carry on any longer. But I would be very happy to continue talking with you over PM or on this thread, if you like.
I wish you all the best in recovery. I absolutely believe that there is no one path to recovery -- different people are called to different methods. I would not insist that you stick with AA, for any reason. But I would urge you to challenge some of your beliefs...you might find that things start to look better afterwards.
Thanks for this insightful post. A lot of valuable observations here. I could relate very strongly to what you posted.
A bit about me...I was sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, and after trying for a long time to moderate my drinking and/or "white-knuckle" my way through sobriety, I decided to try AA. I went to two meetings in the span of a week and decided it was not for me -- I was very uncomfortable with the religious language. I didn't like the "sharing," because I often could not relate and a lot of it was just people ranting and riffing about what happened during their day. I thought the steps were basically ridiculous -- except for the first step. I felt basically defeated by alcohol. I could not see how I could recover on my own, because every time I tried to stop, I would eventually change my mind -- decide that it wasn't worth it to stop.
Ultimately I went about ten weeks without meetings or a plan of any kind, had a slip, and went back to AA, to a different meeting. It took me at least a year of irregular attendance at meetings, long, drawn-out arguments with AA members, and internal turmoil before something "clicked" about AA for me, and I started to feel like I belonged there.
I was not an instant convert, but in time I realized that the program has not only saved my bacon but given me a life worth living. So I want to go through some of the points you made and offer a different perspective. Take what you want and leave the rest -- as many have already said, there is no one way to recovery. If you don't like AA, you can try something else.
I'm beginning to have concerns about AA. These concerns are driving me out of meetings ...
AA's message of victory in hopelessness has made me afraid of myself.
AA has this effect on me.
Being in meetings where people spend 5 minutes thanking the speaker and talking about how grateful they are makes me feel more even more isolated and misunderstood.
I'm frustrated about how AA is making me feel worse about my behavior.
These have been ideas that have been weighing me down.
AA's message of victory in hopelessness has made me afraid of myself.
AA has this effect on me.
Being in meetings where people spend 5 minutes thanking the speaker and talking about how grateful they are makes me feel more even more isolated and misunderstood.
I'm frustrated about how AA is making me feel worse about my behavior.
These have been ideas that have been weighing me down.
I think basically what I am suggesting is that we need to be accountable for own thoughts and feelings. It is not someone else's responsibility, for example, to make their share in a meeting relatable to me, or to anyone else. It's my responsibility to support my own recovery by listening for the things that will help me to stay sober today.
If you want to experiment with using your will power to stay sober -- start here. See how you can change your perceptions of and reactions to circumstances and situations. One of the big tools in the AA toolkit is learning to see our part in things -- see how our perspective fundamentally changes the situation. If you want to, you can continue to look for situations that won't cause you to feel isolated and misunderstood. But ultimately that ball is always going to be in your court -- you ultimately decide how to respond to feelings and thoughts that arise. Recovery is absolutely impossible if we do not learn to change our relationship to the thoughts, for example, that tell us we ought to drink, or that drinking will help us feel better. It doesn't matter what program of recovery you use, that's the crux of it, as far as I can tell. We have to learn to resist some of these things, to see them differently, to see our choice in the matter. Thoughts and feelings will come, and then we have to respond to them appropriately -- in a way that best serves our recovery.
For a very, very long time, I have used self-pity as a way of making myself feel better, and feel special. It can actually feel good to feel bad -- nobody else suffers the way I do, nobody can relate to me, there's nothing for me in this world. That makes me special. AA has helped me to see these things, see the ways that choose to feel unwell, because it serves my interests in a roundabout way.
You wrote a lot of interesting and valid points, and there is a lot more to talk about. I'm not sure if what I have already written will resonate with you so I won't carry on any longer. But I would be very happy to continue talking with you over PM or on this thread, if you like.
I wish you all the best in recovery. I absolutely believe that there is no one path to recovery -- different people are called to different methods. I would not insist that you stick with AA, for any reason. But I would urge you to challenge some of your beliefs...you might find that things start to look better afterwards.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
b086, I also very much appreciate your post. What stands out for me is that it seems to be in opposition to this:
Step 1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step 2) Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
You stated: "One of the big tools in the AA toolkit is learning to see our part in things -- see how our perspective fundamentally changes the situation." I entirely agree. But this is not about powerlessness or turning our will over to anyone. It's about taking responsibility - for our stumbles and for our recovery. I've only been sober for seven months, so maybe I'm clueless, but I have to give myself the credit. My life is my own, I'm doing well, and I'm proud of that. Call it vanity, but I think I would feel somehow diminished if I believed a greater power did it for me. My decisions. My responsibility. My consequences.
That said, I've been to some AA meetings and I'll likely go again. If I ever find myself with a mind to start drinking or drugging again I will seek people who will help support my sobriety. Heck, that's why I'm on SR.
Ythill, you are not alone. Thanks for starting the conversation.
Step 1) We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
Step 2) Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Step 3) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
You stated: "One of the big tools in the AA toolkit is learning to see our part in things -- see how our perspective fundamentally changes the situation." I entirely agree. But this is not about powerlessness or turning our will over to anyone. It's about taking responsibility - for our stumbles and for our recovery. I've only been sober for seven months, so maybe I'm clueless, but I have to give myself the credit. My life is my own, I'm doing well, and I'm proud of that. Call it vanity, but I think I would feel somehow diminished if I believed a greater power did it for me. My decisions. My responsibility. My consequences.
That said, I've been to some AA meetings and I'll likely go again. If I ever find myself with a mind to start drinking or drugging again I will seek people who will help support my sobriety. Heck, that's why I'm on SR.
Ythill, you are not alone. Thanks for starting the conversation.
waking down
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,641
I'm formulating my own steps:
1) I admitted I was powerless over alcohol - when I drank it.
2) Came to believe that mindfulness and meditation will restore me to sanity.
4) Made a decision to take responsibility for my life and strengthen my will through mindful practice and unbending sobriety...
1) I admitted I was powerless over alcohol - when I drank it.
2) Came to believe that mindfulness and meditation will restore me to sanity.
4) Made a decision to take responsibility for my life and strengthen my will through mindful practice and unbending sobriety...
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 192
Hi there. I could have written your post at one point.(still relate to most of it actually). I have been going to AA for about 21 months now and felt very similar to you for a long time. I especially did not relate to the thanking of the speaker, repetition of the same things again and again. But, I had stopped and started drinking so many times in the past without the support of a group like AA (they are the biggest game in town around where I am)...that curiosity alone kept me coming back.
For me, it helped me to know that I could use the support of AA and not necessarily have to agree with everything everyone says in a meeting, or with everything that the Big Book says. Frankly my sobriety is my sobriety so I try not to get too concerned with what someone else thinks of it. I try to take suggestions when needed. But I don't think I will ever be considered a "hard core stepper" or anything like that. In my area at least, no one ever seems insulted or "put off" for people sharing whatever they are feeling at the moment. So, if you aren't feeling a particular sentiment, feel free to share it. It is your meeting too--that is the point really.
Truly you do not have to stick with AA if you don't want too. But my take on it is that there is a free support group full of people who once abused alcohol (or still are) like me. I deserve to be here to get help just as much as anyone, and there are no hard fast rules in AA-they are all suggestions.
All of the above is just my long way of saying, "take what you need and leave the rest". If after a time you feel it is really not for you, you don't have to stay. I don't believe that AA is for everyone. But for me the fellowship helps me feel less alone and so for me, for now anyway, I will keep going.
Good luck in whatever you decide.
For me, it helped me to know that I could use the support of AA and not necessarily have to agree with everything everyone says in a meeting, or with everything that the Big Book says. Frankly my sobriety is my sobriety so I try not to get too concerned with what someone else thinks of it. I try to take suggestions when needed. But I don't think I will ever be considered a "hard core stepper" or anything like that. In my area at least, no one ever seems insulted or "put off" for people sharing whatever they are feeling at the moment. So, if you aren't feeling a particular sentiment, feel free to share it. It is your meeting too--that is the point really.
Truly you do not have to stick with AA if you don't want too. But my take on it is that there is a free support group full of people who once abused alcohol (or still are) like me. I deserve to be here to get help just as much as anyone, and there are no hard fast rules in AA-they are all suggestions.
All of the above is just my long way of saying, "take what you need and leave the rest". If after a time you feel it is really not for you, you don't have to stay. I don't believe that AA is for everyone. But for me the fellowship helps me feel less alone and so for me, for now anyway, I will keep going.
Good luck in whatever you decide.
Keeping it simple!
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Surrey, BC
Posts: 3,282
Originally Posted by Ythill 
These have been ideas that have been weighing me down. Can anyone with more experience chime in and tell me if this makes any sense? Thanks
If you feel this won't work for you then find another program and give that one a try. Keep trying until you find something that works. Or sometimes you can even do a combination of programs. I do AA, WFS and some smart. I find I get something from each program.
I had to learn for myself not to complicate all of them, so I made them simple for me. I do what benefits me right now and what makes sense. That stuff that doesn't make sense, I shelf it, and will bring it out later when I am ready to or feel I need to look at it. It's a learning process and for me it is baby steps and finding out the things that do work for me.
This is your recovery and you will find something that will work for you. Each one of us takes a journey and it is very personal and unique for each of us
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