Moderate Drinking
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Moderate Drinking
In today’s (Sunday) N.Y. Times, pp. A-18-19, there is an interesting article on “moderate” drinking as a method for dealing with substance abuse and as an “evidentiary based” alternative to other programs like AA or Rational Recovery. Essentially this seems to consist of cognitive psychiatry, counseling and other professional guidance to foster a process of “maturing” out of binge drinking. The article cites several studies, like the federally financed Epidemiological Survey which is said to have found that 75 percent of heavy drinkers regain control without the help of a rehab or AA. One approach was to suggest that a patient remain alcohol free for a month and then see if he or she can gradually resume drinking in a mature and controlled manner.
I hope that this thread doesn’t turn into a debate about recovery methods and certainly agree with anyone who says, “I can only speak for myself. As for others, if some approach seems to be working for you, then every good wish. Work it! Good luck!”
Now, speaking only for myself, I not only stopped drinking for a month. I stopped for seven years. Then, having acquired a bad cold and a hoarse voice and when I had never told my G.P. that I had a drinking problem and having assumed an obligation to give a speech in a major city, my doctor prescribed an antihistamine in what tasted like a liquid form containing alcohol. I gave the speech, was relieved when it was over, had “just one drink” to reward myself and drank progressively more and more for 13 more years. I had lots of counseling, for forty years actually, but I often relapsed.I ended up in a rehab which encouraged people to try AA. I did and had some problems with a literal, traditional approach to the program, joined an Agnostics group (although I’m not an Agnostic), got lots of help from that (despite leaving a meeting when at Christmas they were bad mouthing the mother of Christ saying that she had been false to Joseph and that the Virgin Birth was just a cover up; I told them that I just could not see what that had to do with sobriety). I haven’t had a drink for 26 years and feel no inclination to start. I just never think about it. I rarely go to AA meetings now but I thank all the AA folks who helped me along the way.
The Times article mentions several “surveys”, some concluding that AA results in few recoveries. Others that 75 percent of "heavy" drinkers become moderate drinkers without AA or a rehab. Again, I can only speak for myself. No one “surveyed” me. No one from the rehab I was in or from AA ever followed up on me. Asked me how I was doing. So who responds to these surveys, and how can we tell how reliable they are? If someone is drinking again, are they likely to lie about it? Is a certain percentage likely to fake it? Those who do the surveys are talking or writing to people. But how can they tell who is answering the survey, a truthful, rational voice or an AV (Addictive Voice)? Hello! Is anyone there? Who’s there?
W.
I hope that this thread doesn’t turn into a debate about recovery methods and certainly agree with anyone who says, “I can only speak for myself. As for others, if some approach seems to be working for you, then every good wish. Work it! Good luck!”
Now, speaking only for myself, I not only stopped drinking for a month. I stopped for seven years. Then, having acquired a bad cold and a hoarse voice and when I had never told my G.P. that I had a drinking problem and having assumed an obligation to give a speech in a major city, my doctor prescribed an antihistamine in what tasted like a liquid form containing alcohol. I gave the speech, was relieved when it was over, had “just one drink” to reward myself and drank progressively more and more for 13 more years. I had lots of counseling, for forty years actually, but I often relapsed.I ended up in a rehab which encouraged people to try AA. I did and had some problems with a literal, traditional approach to the program, joined an Agnostics group (although I’m not an Agnostic), got lots of help from that (despite leaving a meeting when at Christmas they were bad mouthing the mother of Christ saying that she had been false to Joseph and that the Virgin Birth was just a cover up; I told them that I just could not see what that had to do with sobriety). I haven’t had a drink for 26 years and feel no inclination to start. I just never think about it. I rarely go to AA meetings now but I thank all the AA folks who helped me along the way.
The Times article mentions several “surveys”, some concluding that AA results in few recoveries. Others that 75 percent of "heavy" drinkers become moderate drinkers without AA or a rehab. Again, I can only speak for myself. No one “surveyed” me. No one from the rehab I was in or from AA ever followed up on me. Asked me how I was doing. So who responds to these surveys, and how can we tell how reliable they are? If someone is drinking again, are they likely to lie about it? Is a certain percentage likely to fake it? Those who do the surveys are talking or writing to people. But how can they tell who is answering the survey, a truthful, rational voice or an AV (Addictive Voice)? Hello! Is anyone there? Who’s there?
W.
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This will probably be a debate on moderate drinking, and knowing SR it'll be getting plenty of posts!! 
For me abstinence doesn't cure or fix me, so that I can somehow then go back to "moderate" drinking, when I drank I drank to get drunk, if I picked up a drink today I'd do the same thing, the problem with that 30 day trial and then having just one drink for me, is that I don't see the point in one drink, if I didn't get a buzz from it, what is the point of one drink, and this is what separates me from normal drinkers, some can go for a beer and then home after work, that's not how I drank.
The other thing is alcohol is progressive due to the body developing a tolerance so the buzz needs to be fuelled by more and more alcohol, or stronger alcohol, as time goes on, so the 1 beer when it stops giving the desired effect, will the alcoholic move onto 2 beers and then 3 beers etc, this for me is why I don't think I can be medically cured of my alcoholism.
For me abstinence doesn't cure or fix me, so that I can somehow then go back to "moderate" drinking, when I drank I drank to get drunk, if I picked up a drink today I'd do the same thing, the problem with that 30 day trial and then having just one drink for me, is that I don't see the point in one drink, if I didn't get a buzz from it, what is the point of one drink, and this is what separates me from normal drinkers, some can go for a beer and then home after work, that's not how I drank.
The other thing is alcohol is progressive due to the body developing a tolerance so the buzz needs to be fuelled by more and more alcohol, or stronger alcohol, as time goes on, so the 1 beer when it stops giving the desired effect, will the alcoholic move onto 2 beers and then 3 beers etc, this for me is why I don't think I can be medically cured of my alcoholism.
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My evidence is only anecdotal of course, but I have never in my life met someone who was able to return to moderate drinking long term after drinking alcoholically. I've seen hundreds, probably thousands try but every single one has failed.
No article, study or argument can convince me that sobriety is not the best solution for me.
No article, study or argument can convince me that sobriety is not the best solution for me.
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Alcohol was but one of many symptoms to my addictive mindset. So I guess if I could rewire all the trillions of circuits in my brain then yeah, I could go back to drinking or using or any number of things that became harmful, lol.
I have to wonder why so much money and effort is invested with the desired outcome to moderate drinking? Perhaps the bottling companies are funding or pushing for this...I mean they are really the only ones that benefit from an ex drinker becoming a moderate drinker.
In my opinion feeding a false hope that an addict can use again does nothing but create harm and is totally ego driven.
I have to wonder why so much money and effort is invested with the desired outcome to moderate drinking? Perhaps the bottling companies are funding or pushing for this...I mean they are really the only ones that benefit from an ex drinker becoming a moderate drinker.
In my opinion feeding a false hope that an addict can use again does nothing but create harm and is totally ego driven.
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I wonder the same thing. Who answers these surveys and who believes these type of surveys anyway?
I also agree with purpleknight that What's The Point in drinking one or two? If I drink the way I want, it means catching a buzz early in the day, passing out finally and then starting over in a few hours. That's no way to live and I've tested the moderation approach enough times to know it doesn't work for me.
If I can't drink the way I want to - chasing that buzz - then that only leaves abstinence.
also
I also agree with purpleknight that What's The Point in drinking one or two? If I drink the way I want, it means catching a buzz early in the day, passing out finally and then starting over in a few hours. That's no way to live and I've tested the moderation approach enough times to know it doesn't work for me.
If I can't drink the way I want to - chasing that buzz - then that only leaves abstinence.
also
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I don't doubt that there are people who have a problem with alcohol that can then moderate their drinking for the rest of their lives. I think it depends on one's relationship with alcohol. If I drink a single beer, I feel sick for the rest of the day. Or, that has been how it was in the last 7 years, I think. My reaction to alcohol has changed over the years.
If I were to follow a course of moderating my drinking it would mean that I was putting effort into being able to consume something that makes me sick moderately. It's similar to the idea of moderate cutting. Someone could cut themselves in moderation and not have significant problems as a result. But, why should someone put effort into training themselves to cut them selves in moderation? The fact that they would be putting effort into being able to cut themselves means that they have some addictive attachment to cutting themselves.
The analogy is that the way that I drink now is addictive just like cutting is addictive. It's possible that over time I could stop having a compulsion to drink and not get sick from small amounts of alcohol. Then my relationship to alcohol would be different. At that point, it could be that drinking is similar to having a dessert.
If someone enjoys having pastries but on occasion has eaten too many, it could be that they can moderate their pastry eating, rather than needing to avoid pastries all together. My relationship to alcohol is not as harmless as that.
As for large percentages of people who eventually moderate their drinking, alcohol is an addictive substance and it is toxic. If you put someone in a cell and fed them alcohol, they could be heavy drinkers and even develop a dependency. But, their relationship to alcohol might not be the same as that of someone like me.
Probably, not all of the people who drink to excess in college, are prone to alcohol addiction. It is the situation that they are in. They then stop drinking to excess over time.
While someone is prone to alcoholism, practicing moderate drinking is an alcoholic practice. When someone is not prone to alcoholism, moderate drinking is a possible alternative that is not an act of addiction.
If I were to follow a course of moderating my drinking it would mean that I was putting effort into being able to consume something that makes me sick moderately. It's similar to the idea of moderate cutting. Someone could cut themselves in moderation and not have significant problems as a result. But, why should someone put effort into training themselves to cut them selves in moderation? The fact that they would be putting effort into being able to cut themselves means that they have some addictive attachment to cutting themselves.
The analogy is that the way that I drink now is addictive just like cutting is addictive. It's possible that over time I could stop having a compulsion to drink and not get sick from small amounts of alcohol. Then my relationship to alcohol would be different. At that point, it could be that drinking is similar to having a dessert.
If someone enjoys having pastries but on occasion has eaten too many, it could be that they can moderate their pastry eating, rather than needing to avoid pastries all together. My relationship to alcohol is not as harmless as that.
As for large percentages of people who eventually moderate their drinking, alcohol is an addictive substance and it is toxic. If you put someone in a cell and fed them alcohol, they could be heavy drinkers and even develop a dependency. But, their relationship to alcohol might not be the same as that of someone like me.
Probably, not all of the people who drink to excess in college, are prone to alcohol addiction. It is the situation that they are in. They then stop drinking to excess over time.
While someone is prone to alcoholism, practicing moderate drinking is an alcoholic practice. When someone is not prone to alcoholism, moderate drinking is a possible alternative that is not an act of addiction.
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I read the article as well wpainterw. I thought it was interesting. Moderation Management (MM) stresses personal responsibility for drinking. Also interesting is that many in MM attend weekly meetings where they discuss "tips, challenges and progress on avoiding triggers".
When I tried to moderate I didn't attend meetings such as those described and I failed miserably each time I tried to moderate. I'm not sure if attending meetings would have helped. If this can work for some people that's great. I think one of the many things I've learned here on SR is that different approaches work for different people. The only thing that has worked for me is complete abstinence.
When I tried to moderate I didn't attend meetings such as those described and I failed miserably each time I tried to moderate. I'm not sure if attending meetings would have helped. If this can work for some people that's great. I think one of the many things I've learned here on SR is that different approaches work for different people. The only thing that has worked for me is complete abstinence.
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Originally Posted by Purpleknight 
This will probably be a debate on moderate drinking, and knowing SR it'll be getting plenty of posts!!
For me abstinence doesn't cure or fix me, so that I can somehow then go back to "moderate" drinking, when I drank I drank to get drunk, if I picked up a drink today I'd do the same thing, the problem with that 30 day trial and then having just one drink for me, is that I don't see the point in one drink, if I didn't get a buzz from it, what is the point of one drink, and this is what separates me from normal drinkers, some can go for a beer and then home after work, that's not how I drank.
The other thing is alcohol is progressive due to the body developing a tolerance so the buzz needs to be fuelled by more and more alcohol, or stronger alcohol, as time goes on, so the 1 beer when it stops giving the desired effect, will the alcoholic move onto 2 beers and then 3 beers etc, this for me is why I don't think I can be medically cured of my alcoholism.
For me abstinence doesn't cure or fix me, so that I can somehow then go back to "moderate" drinking, when I drank I drank to get drunk, if I picked up a drink today I'd do the same thing, the problem with that 30 day trial and then having just one drink for me, is that I don't see the point in one drink, if I didn't get a buzz from it, what is the point of one drink, and this is what separates me from normal drinkers, some can go for a beer and then home after work, that's not how I drank.
The other thing is alcohol is progressive due to the body developing a tolerance so the buzz needs to be fuelled by more and more alcohol, or stronger alcohol, as time goes on, so the 1 beer when it stops giving the desired effect, will the alcoholic move onto 2 beers and then 3 beers etc, this for me is why I don't think I can be medically cured of my alcoholism.
I agree with you Purple. That is precisely my experience. One drink is never going to be enough. And it takes more booze to get a buzz as the body develops tolerance. It gets even tricker as one ages, the liver ages, etc. etc. It's a slippery slope which gets steeper with time.
W.
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Originally Posted by Oldselfagain
I read the article as well wpainterw. I thought it was interesting. Moderation Management (MM) stresses personal responsibility for drinking. Also interesting is that many in MM attend weekly meetings where they discuss "tips, challenges and progress on avoiding triggers".
When I tried to moderate I didn't attend meetings such as those described and I failed miserably each time I tried to moderate. I'm not sure if attending meetings would have helped. If this can work for some people that's great. I think one of the many things I've learned here on SR is that different approaches work for different people. The only thing that has worked for me is complete abstinence.
When I tried to moderate I didn't attend meetings such as those described and I failed miserably each time I tried to moderate. I'm not sure if attending meetings would have helped. If this can work for some people that's great. I think one of the many things I've learned here on SR is that different approaches work for different people. The only thing that has worked for me is complete abstinence.
I agree. Whatever approach is taken I think that attending meetings can be very helpful. It certainly was for me.
W.
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I've tried the "moderation method" for over 30 years, off and on. Here I am again on Day 5. It doesnt work for me, no matter how much I or many others want it to. If I keep trying, I will spend my whole life focusing on moderately drinking, rather than living my life. That would (and has been) such a waste.
Let me clarify. Moderation works for me until about my third drink.
Let me clarify. Moderation works for me until about my third drink.
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Originally Posted by Tiptree
I think these studies are being fueled by the college binge drinking trend as part of developing responsible drinking programs in universities.
* * *
To me it's important not to get fooled and find oneself excessively "fueled".
W.
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Originally Posted by Oldselfagain
I read the article as well wpainterw. I thought it was interesting. Moderation Management (MM) stresses personal responsibility for drinking. Also interesting is that many in MM attend weekly meetings where they discuss "tips, challenges and progress on avoiding triggers".
When I tried to moderate I didn't attend meetings such as those described and I failed miserably each time I tried to moderate. I'm not sure if attending meetings would have helped. If this can work for some people that's great. I think one of the many things I've learned here on SR is that different approaches work for different people. The only thing that has worked for me is complete abstinence.
When I tried to moderate I didn't attend meetings such as those described and I failed miserably each time I tried to moderate. I'm not sure if attending meetings would have helped. If this can work for some people that's great. I think one of the many things I've learned here on SR is that different approaches work for different people. The only thing that has worked for me is complete abstinence.
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Originally Posted by jdooner
The founder of MM was practicing her program when she got on the highway the wrong way and wiped out an entire family. She now rejects MM and has adopted a 12 step program while in prison.
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Originally Posted by wpainterw
The Times article mentions several “surveys”, some concluding that AA results in few recoveries. Others that 75 percent of "heavy" drinkers become moderate drinkers without AA or a rehab. Again, I can only speak for myself. No one “surveyed” me. No one from the rehab I was in or from AA ever followed up on me. Asked me how I was doing. So who responds to these surveys, and how can we tell how reliable they are? If someone is drinking again, are they likely to lie about it? Is a certain percentage likely to fake it? Those who do the surveys are talking or writing to people. But how can they tell who is answering the survey, a truthful, rational voice or an AV (Addictive Voice)?
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I don't drink. I never did. I get drunk. That's all I know. I don't require a survey or a sociologist to tell me how to fix that.
The founder of Moderation Management quit her own organization a few months before she drunkenly crashed head on killing a father and daughter. At the time she quit she admitted MM was not working for her and she had not been able to follow her own program of moderation. A confluence of tragedies wrought from the fear of just quitting that has gripped many of us.
The founder of Moderation Management quit her own organization a few months before she drunkenly crashed head on killing a father and daughter. At the time she quit she admitted MM was not working for her and she had not been able to follow her own program of moderation. A confluence of tragedies wrought from the fear of just quitting that has gripped many of us.
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MM founders name is Audrey Kishline, for those of you who want to Google her story.
I have to question the validity of the statistics behind this article. Also note other recent article on the statistical rise of binge drinking.
I like to get high/buzzed. No amount of literature can change my craving for that state once I start drinking. No amount of logic or psychotherapy can change that desire once I start.
I await more studies to disprove this article.
I have to question the validity of the statistics behind this article. Also note other recent article on the statistical rise of binge drinking.
I like to get high/buzzed. No amount of literature can change my craving for that state once I start drinking. No amount of logic or psychotherapy can change that desire once I start.
I await more studies to disprove this article.
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I've known a number of 'heavy' drinkers who've been successful at cutting down, but I doubt they had the alcoholic relationship with drink that I had. Perhaps people like this were included in the survey? For me, drinking in moderation is impossible - and, in all honesty, is not even desirable.
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