Moderate Drinking
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
There have been people here since I've been on SR who claim that they're able to moderate, and that they and their lives are better for it. The vast majority have been harsh and critical to anyone who questions their choice -- if not also their ability -- to moderate happily and successfully. I don't recall a single one who didn't either storm off SR in anger or berate other people who commented on moderation, usually without provocation. More than this are the scores of people who've insisted that they're able to moderate, only to return weeks, months and years later to report that they've destroyed virtually everything meaningful to them in their lives as a result of their research.
I think that their palpable and destructive anger says more about their efforts at moderating than does any report about how successful they've been at limiting themselves to occasional drinking, or to fairly regular drinking with strict limits.
I haven't read the article, but I do know that the "Moderation Movement" was originally a response to the intractable nature of what we refer to as alcoholism. Science continues to leave us without any one particular reliable remedy for alcoholism despite decades of research. Those who demand that an "empirically- or evidence- based" solution is the only viable choice of treatment are barking up the wrong tree. Addictions don't care about science, and science doesn't seem to care that their constant failures in discovering evidence-based solutions have been overwhelmingly umhelpful.
I think that their palpable and destructive anger says more about their efforts at moderating than does any report about how successful they've been at limiting themselves to occasional drinking, or to fairly regular drinking with strict limits.
I haven't read the article, but I do know that the "Moderation Movement" was originally a response to the intractable nature of what we refer to as alcoholism. Science continues to leave us without any one particular reliable remedy for alcoholism despite decades of research. Those who demand that an "empirically- or evidence- based" solution is the only viable choice of treatment are barking up the wrong tree. Addictions don't care about science, and science doesn't seem to care that their constant failures in discovering evidence-based solutions have been overwhelmingly umhelpful.
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
There is a thread in another forum here about Collective AV, the societal acceptance of seeking an experience altered by chemicals and the resulting loss of inhibition and responsibility. I think that a newspaper article about paying for and receiving therapy so that I could continue to drink and catch a buzz now and then in spite of my past addiction to alcohol is the height of this Collective AV.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 1,022
Couple things
1) I am skeptical of the integrity of self-reporting drinkers, and assume the study results skewed as a result of people under-reporting their drinking
2) I think I could keep my drinking at so-called "normal" levels were I to start again, but see little point in doing so. It was fun, but it was wrecking my life, and I don't make so much money that I can throw it away on drugs and alcohol. Every dollar you blow on frivolous trash in your forties is a few more days of slaving away for the Man before you can retire.
3) the idea that moving to moderation is impossible because "it didn't work for me" is an obvious logical fallacy. There are hundreds of millions of humans on the Earth at any moment; variety is likely the rule rather than the exception.
Hope everyone is having a nice Sunday
1) I am skeptical of the integrity of self-reporting drinkers, and assume the study results skewed as a result of people under-reporting their drinking
2) I think I could keep my drinking at so-called "normal" levels were I to start again, but see little point in doing so. It was fun, but it was wrecking my life, and I don't make so much money that I can throw it away on drugs and alcohol. Every dollar you blow on frivolous trash in your forties is a few more days of slaving away for the Man before you can retire.
3) the idea that moving to moderation is impossible because "it didn't work for me" is an obvious logical fallacy. There are hundreds of millions of humans on the Earth at any moment; variety is likely the rule rather than the exception.
Hope everyone is having a nice Sunday
Member
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: C.C. Ma.
Posts: 3,697
As stated at different times, I’ve attended more than 15,000 AA meetings sober and never was questioned about my success in AA. I’ve asked some old timers with + 40 years and never had they either.
One thing regarding many people regarding their drinking and maybe in general is that most won’t get an award for honesty. JMO
BE WELL
One thing regarding many people regarding their drinking and maybe in general is that most won’t get an award for honesty. JMO
BE WELL
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 64
Newsflash! Not everyone is a real alcoholic and I've drank with hard drinkers before that just stopped or drastically reduced their drinking habits. They aren't like me. Their problems stop when their drinking stops. Mine begin.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 8,326
once the Beast gets fed, it's voracious. i never drank for taste. I drank for effect. To pass out. I quit for long periods of time, up to eleven years once. the Beast grows even while abstinent. I picked up worst than before.
I have a peaceful life today. I knew peace in Sobriety before. Yet, I picked up. the beast is sly. cunning baffling and powerful. It does not moderate. It destroys.
I cannot for the life of my understand why these studies keep coming up. Unless its the alcoholic dream to drink again. and we can't. It's that easy. We can't.
Love from Lenina
I have a peaceful life today. I knew peace in Sobriety before. Yet, I picked up. the beast is sly. cunning baffling and powerful. It does not moderate. It destroys.
I cannot for the life of my understand why these studies keep coming up. Unless its the alcoholic dream to drink again. and we can't. It's that easy. We can't.
Love from Lenina
Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,649
There is no clear scientifically proven cause of alcohol addiction, or alcoholism if you prefer. Rather quickly, semantics become a part of the discussion!
In any event, the jury is out. Is it hereditary? Is it a chemistry? Does the brain of an alcoholic have different chemistry than a normal person? Or maybe it's in the liver. Is it a tiny congenital brain damage?
Is it all of those things? Unfortunately, we really don't know.
As long as we don't really know, there will be plenty of groups and individuals who offer their take on it and offer a method of recovery.
The supporters of moderation must, as an integral part of their theory, reject the idea that the alcoholic is essentially different from the normal drinker.
I tip my hat to any problem drinker that can moderate. I really do. But I know that I am different from normal people, and any attempt to train myself to be normal didn't work. Because I was never normal to start with. I can't "go back" there: I was never there. If you get my meaning.
I know that my brain has a completely different response to alcohol than that of a normal person. I have asked, I have observed, and I know without a shred of doubt that I am different. And I am okay with being different!
In any event, the jury is out. Is it hereditary? Is it a chemistry? Does the brain of an alcoholic have different chemistry than a normal person? Or maybe it's in the liver. Is it a tiny congenital brain damage?
Is it all of those things? Unfortunately, we really don't know.
As long as we don't really know, there will be plenty of groups and individuals who offer their take on it and offer a method of recovery.
The supporters of moderation must, as an integral part of their theory, reject the idea that the alcoholic is essentially different from the normal drinker.
I tip my hat to any problem drinker that can moderate. I really do. But I know that I am different from normal people, and any attempt to train myself to be normal didn't work. Because I was never normal to start with. I can't "go back" there: I was never there. If you get my meaning.
I know that my brain has a completely different response to alcohol than that of a normal person. I have asked, I have observed, and I know without a shred of doubt that I am different. And I am okay with being different!
Member
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 322
Originally Posted by Oldselfagain 
I read the article as well wpainterw. I thought it was interesting. Moderation Management (MM) stresses personal responsibility for drinking. Also interesting is that many in MM attend weekly meetings where they discuss "tips, challenges and progress on avoiding triggers"..
Community Greeter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 51,569
I saw it this morning too W. Wish I hadn't - it just infuriated me.
People in the fragile first stages of stopping may decide there's 'hope' for them after all. I drank for the effect too - couldn't imagine why anyone would bother to just nicely sip a drink or two. We all know how the moderating ends.
Thanks for starting a good discussion W. I feel better knowing others felt as I did.
People in the fragile first stages of stopping may decide there's 'hope' for them after all. I drank for the effect too - couldn't imagine why anyone would bother to just nicely sip a drink or two. We all know how the moderating ends.
Thanks for starting a good discussion W. I feel better knowing others felt as I did.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 5,700
I'm a subscriber to the NYT yet have not read the article. As others have pointed, before judgements can be made one has to know who is funding the research so I'm not taking anything written without a grain of salt. IOW, follow the money.
As for the moderation/abstinence discussion I truly believe that for some the former is not an option, but for others it is. In my one month on SR it's clear that the vast majority need to be in the latter category. I'm attempting to be in the former as anyone who has read my journal would know. Endgame, I truly hope that when you wrote about people who were belligerent to the SR community because they were seeking to moderate you didn't have me in mind. Everyone has been civil to me and I believe I've responded in kind. I freely admit that I need some help, which is why I'm here, but also believe that my attempt at moderation is going to be successful and without a doubt is being aided by being on SR.
Best wishes for a fine evening to all.
As for the moderation/abstinence discussion I truly believe that for some the former is not an option, but for others it is. In my one month on SR it's clear that the vast majority need to be in the latter category. I'm attempting to be in the former as anyone who has read my journal would know. Endgame, I truly hope that when you wrote about people who were belligerent to the SR community because they were seeking to moderate you didn't have me in mind. Everyone has been civil to me and I believe I've responded in kind. I freely admit that I need some help, which is why I'm here, but also believe that my attempt at moderation is going to be successful and without a doubt is being aided by being on SR.
Best wishes for a fine evening to all.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,550
Gonnachange: I was not among any who may have been as you say belligerent or hostile to the moderate drinking movement. My bottom line is, as I have said, if it works for you (it never worked for me) than do it
I want to make another point on "statistics" and "studies". As I have said I have had problems with them all and question the absence of follow up from my rehab and counselors 26 years ago. And AA is too pluralistic to be a subject of reliable empirical study.
I do know one class of alcoholics and one class of their victims that never lie. You can always trust them. They are the dead. The dead never lie. (Sounds like a movie title). If they died of drink then you can be reasonably sure of the fact. Same thing for their victims if they died because of a drunken driver. And Emergency Room records rarely lie, particularly for those who are not political or public figures. So when we learn that California is among those states which have the highest percentage of ER admissions due to substance abuse that is probably a pretty solid figure. Should we legalize more drugs in states that already have high ER substance abuse admissions? It's a good question. We shall see what happens in states that take this path.
W.
I want to make another point on "statistics" and "studies". As I have said I have had problems with them all and question the absence of follow up from my rehab and counselors 26 years ago. And AA is too pluralistic to be a subject of reliable empirical study.
I do know one class of alcoholics and one class of their victims that never lie. You can always trust them. They are the dead. The dead never lie. (Sounds like a movie title). If they died of drink then you can be reasonably sure of the fact. Same thing for their victims if they died because of a drunken driver. And Emergency Room records rarely lie, particularly for those who are not political or public figures. So when we learn that California is among those states which have the highest percentage of ER admissions due to substance abuse that is probably a pretty solid figure. Should we legalize more drugs in states that already have high ER substance abuse admissions? It's a good question. We shall see what happens in states that take this path.
W.
Keeping it simple!
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Surrey, BC
Posts: 3,282
There is no way I can drink moderately. And in my opinion people that don't have a problem with alcohol don't obsess over when and how much to drink.
I became worse with my drinking when I tried to moderate it.
I became worse with my drinking when I tried to moderate it.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,909
When I was exploring moderation movements a year or so ago I came across the disturbing story of Audrey Kishline, founder of Moderation Management (in short, she killed father and daughter in a drunk-driving head-on collision, she was knocked out cold with half a bottle of vodka on the seat next to her, you can goodle the rest). I closed the browser and tried to forget it, but the story always stuck with me.
As many here, I too have tried to moderate, to miserable results.
As many here, I too have tried to moderate, to miserable results.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Mid-Atlantic USA
Posts: 2,441
Originally Posted by jdooner
The founder of MM was practicing her program when she got on the highway the wrong way and wiped out an entire family. She now rejects MM and has adopted a 12 step program while in prison.
So what is the point here? One could easily find many AA members who relapsed, drove drunk and then killed someone (and I'd bet serious money that some of those drivers had worked the Steps). Does that mean AA doesn't work? Of course not.
"In January 2000 Kishline posted a message to an official MM email list stating that she had concluded her best drinking goal was abstinence and that she would begin attending Alcoholics Anonymous, SMART Recovery and Women For Sobriety meetings while continuing to support MM for others. Having never ceased her excessive drinking, while attending Moderation Management, in March 2000 she drove her truck the wrong way down a highway, and hit another vehicle head-on killing its two passengers."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moderation_Management
Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,359
Originally Posted by FeenixxRising
Actually, accounts differ. According to Wikipedia (and a number of other news sources), Audrey Kishline, one of the founders of Moderation Management, had decided abstinence was her goal ~ three months before her crash and was attending AA at the time of her crash.
So what is the point here? One could easily find many AA members who relapsed, drove drunk and then killed someone (and I'd bet serious money that some of those drivers had worked the Steps). Does that mean AA doesn't work? Of course not.
"In January 2000 Kishline posted a message to an official MM email list stating that she had concluded her best drinking goal was abstinence and that she would begin attending Alcoholics Anonymous, SMART Recovery and Women For Sobriety meetings while continuing to support MM for others. Having never ceased her excessive drinking, while attending Moderation Management, in March 2000 she drove her truck the wrong way down a highway, and hit another vehicle head-on killing its two passengers."
Moderation Management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
So what is the point here? One could easily find many AA members who relapsed, drove drunk and then killed someone (and I'd bet serious money that some of those drivers had worked the Steps). Does that mean AA doesn't work? Of course not.
"In January 2000 Kishline posted a message to an official MM email list stating that she had concluded her best drinking goal was abstinence and that she would begin attending Alcoholics Anonymous, SMART Recovery and Women For Sobriety meetings while continuing to support MM for others. Having never ceased her excessive drinking, while attending Moderation Management, in March 2000 she drove her truck the wrong way down a highway, and hit another vehicle head-on killing its two passengers."
Moderation Management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't believe moderation can or will work for me, which is really all that matters.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,949
well if there is evidence..like government research that claims a large number of of former heavy drinkers moderate...people that are trying to stay sober don't want to hear about it..I think we can all agree on that..and for them it is really useless information
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 174
Oh man I have wanted to be part of this group that just grows out of it for so long. Getting close to 7 or 8 years now...
But I'm 34, and after countless attempts, moderation has never worked for me. Ever. I don't go out with coworkers for a drink after work. I go out with coworkers for a drink after work, say I'm going to the bathroom, sprint a block and half to the nearest liquor store, swallow a half-pint in about 30 seconds, and run back to the bar talking about how "there was the longest line" or "my contact lens fell out but I found it." Just insane sh*t. Exhausting, embarrassing, bizarre insane sh*t.
But I'm 34, and after countless attempts, moderation has never worked for me. Ever. I don't go out with coworkers for a drink after work. I go out with coworkers for a drink after work, say I'm going to the bathroom, sprint a block and half to the nearest liquor store, swallow a half-pint in about 30 seconds, and run back to the bar talking about how "there was the longest line" or "my contact lens fell out but I found it." Just insane sh*t. Exhausting, embarrassing, bizarre insane sh*t.
Guest
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,580
I had to stop reading this post after only a few lines w.
Something inside me started to dance with delight at the idea of "maturing out"..returning to moderate drinking.
And it scared me.
Bright blessings to you in this discussion.
I'm out.
Something inside me started to dance with delight at the idea of "maturing out"..returning to moderate drinking.
And it scared me.
Bright blessings to you in this discussion.
I'm out.
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