View Poll Results: What is your ACE score?
0
18
15.79%
1
13
11.40%
2
20
17.54%
3
14
12.28%
4
17
14.91%
5+
32
28.07%
Voters: 114. You may not vote on this poll
What is your ACE score?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Sonoran Desert & Southeast Asia
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Those are great family memories kittencat, hold on to them. Sorry about the bookstore closure, that has been wrenching for many. I also have blocked many early memories, not sure why, but we did have a traumatic event in the family early on, when living overseas, so might have something to do with it. I find the questionnaire too general and not granular enough (got 3 I think).. did have alcoholism on both sides, but not both parents. Brilliant, alcoholic father but completely absent, working overseas my entire childhood. And plenty of other things (shaming from my mom, too) and some behavioral problems. But no one has a perfect family. I found the book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" by Gabor Mate very helpful in understanding root causes of addiction. He also wrote a book on ADHD.
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Join Date: May 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,025
Originally Posted by advbike 
Those are great family memories kittencat, hold on to them. Sorry about the bookstore closure, that has been wrenching for many. I also have blocked many early memories, not sure why, but we did have a traumatic event in the family early on, when living overseas, so might have something to do with it. I find the questionnaire too general and not granular enough (got 3 I think).. did have alcoholism on both sides, but not both parents. Brilliant, alcoholic father but completely absent, working overseas my entire childhood. And plenty of other things (shaming from my mom, too) and some behavioral problems. But no one has a perfect family. I found the book "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts" by Gabor Mate very helpful in understanding root causes of addiction. He also wrote a book on ADHD.
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Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,408
7 here
Didn't start drinking until I was in my mid 30's though. Before that I chain smoked and have always battled things like depression and anxiety and terrible sense of self worth. I think addictions just fueled my own sabotage. Whether that's because of my childhood I will never know. It seems for every person like me, there are just as many who suffer a lot in spite of their great upbringing.
Didn't start drinking until I was in my mid 30's though. Before that I chain smoked and have always battled things like depression and anxiety and terrible sense of self worth. I think addictions just fueled my own sabotage. Whether that's because of my childhood I will never know. It seems for every person like me, there are just as many who suffer a lot in spite of their great upbringing.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Interesting that the result of this poll does not really show an association between addiction (assuming that everyone/most who voted had struggled with at least one) and those adverse childhood experiences in the test. Almost the opposite, kind of. It would be interesting to see the 5+ scores broken down like the lower ones too, but 5-10 grouped together constitute a pretty low %. Very low number of people voted so probably not too reliable, but if we want to speculate...
I would never reject the concept though as it is very well-documented and supported by vast amount of data from more reliable sources. I wondered about the distribution here, and am thinking perhaps the membership of SR reflects a pretty select population - people who have access to computers/technology and are interested in a forum like this. By default, this is not the poorest population with the most severe basic environmental disturbances, at least at the time of voting. I think we would see the bias toward higher scores more in the demographic groups that rarely or never use a resource like SR, especially those who don't even want to recover or not seriously. So perhaps the conclusion is actually more that people who take recovery seriously / do recover or at least put together some significant sober time (people who use this forum) tend to have a background with somewhat less adverse childhood experiences, on average. Which actually supports the theory, at least in terms of resilience, who can overcome addictions. Of course there are always exceptions.
I would never reject the concept though as it is very well-documented and supported by vast amount of data from more reliable sources. I wondered about the distribution here, and am thinking perhaps the membership of SR reflects a pretty select population - people who have access to computers/technology and are interested in a forum like this. By default, this is not the poorest population with the most severe basic environmental disturbances, at least at the time of voting. I think we would see the bias toward higher scores more in the demographic groups that rarely or never use a resource like SR, especially those who don't even want to recover or not seriously. So perhaps the conclusion is actually more that people who take recovery seriously / do recover or at least put together some significant sober time (people who use this forum) tend to have a background with somewhat less adverse childhood experiences, on average. Which actually supports the theory, at least in terms of resilience, who can overcome addictions. Of course there are always exceptions.
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Join Date: Jun 2017
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I wondered about the distribution here, and am thinking perhaps the membership of SR reflects a pretty select population - people who have access to computers/technology and are interested in a forum like this. By default, this is not the poorest population with the most severe basic environmental disturbances
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Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Near the mountains
Posts: 1,539
This thread makes me sad.
I looked at it a few times but didn't want to answer. I'm a 6. It is what it is.
I've actually made a good life out of it for the most part. I still hope there's a real hell out there somewhere for those who hurt me. I probably need to work through that.
Just gotta keep on not drinking.
I looked at it a few times but didn't want to answer. I'm a 6. It is what it is.
I've actually made a good life out of it for the most part. I still hope there's a real hell out there somewhere for those who hurt me. I probably need to work through that.
Just gotta keep on not drinking.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Nez - I've heard similar from others who traveled extensively and had the chance to mingle with all sorts of demographics. I think it's a quite beautiful observation about human needs and what's really important in life. Also think it makes a difference though if we focus on addictions later in life, as most people with poverty and/or childhood traumas never develop serious addictions (but can have other mental health challenges, or none). But many people do pick up substance abuse early on directly from dysfunctional families. And many don't - I would be a good example here as my parents were some of the most normal-sober people I've ever known (they did drink small amounts very rarely, but no other drugs or addictive behaviors whatsoever).
Back to the original topic, I was actually involved in running studies like this (addiction and early life experiences) on specific addictions, but not including recovery. We didn't use ACE but much more complex testing instruments that collect a lot more individual parameters, and usually need >100 participants (better a few hundred), otherwise it's not conclusive. Gathering much more extensive background info, and some genetic/medical info if possible, allows for teasing out really meaningful associations, also including what factors can be protective/preventive if someone has a certain predisposition due to inherited biology or early life experience.
I would love to be able to do similar large studies on recovery as well. For example, look for associations between individual background parameters and preferred, successfully applied recovery method(s). There is a lot of literature and talk about "evidence-based" everything, but they are never very comprehensive studies, so we don't actually have real evidence for what is truly evidence-based. Having solid info like that could potentially guide recovery suggestions for addicted persons newly seeking help, i.e. give them suggestions that, based on their background (I would include complex character/personality measures as well), what method might be the most suitable to try. Not saying it would work, but would be interesting, as currently there isn't much guiding these choices.
Unfortunately, it's very hard to do such research studies as people typically drop out when they relapse, so what remains is also biased by default. But we could do surveys on populations recovered long-term (say >a year, less likely to relapse/disappear). given enough funding, because doing these things properly is not cheap. Speaking of the topic of this thread, for example, we could ask what recovery strategy might be the best for someone with lots of adverse childhood experiences. Right now, there is very little that guides treatment providers and even peer groups, and specific suggestions are usually given in a very biased manner based on the preferences of the advisor not the help seeker, or are way too generic. For example, when I respond to the posts of people struggling here, I usually try to consider some background info or impression I have about the poster, but it's extremely limited, subjective and imprecise on a forum like this... kinda shooting in the dark. But if there were solid studies/data of the kinds I'm trying to propose, we could point struggling members to them and encourage them to make more informed choices based on who they are.
Back to the original topic, I was actually involved in running studies like this (addiction and early life experiences) on specific addictions, but not including recovery. We didn't use ACE but much more complex testing instruments that collect a lot more individual parameters, and usually need >100 participants (better a few hundred), otherwise it's not conclusive. Gathering much more extensive background info, and some genetic/medical info if possible, allows for teasing out really meaningful associations, also including what factors can be protective/preventive if someone has a certain predisposition due to inherited biology or early life experience.
I would love to be able to do similar large studies on recovery as well. For example, look for associations between individual background parameters and preferred, successfully applied recovery method(s). There is a lot of literature and talk about "evidence-based" everything, but they are never very comprehensive studies, so we don't actually have real evidence for what is truly evidence-based. Having solid info like that could potentially guide recovery suggestions for addicted persons newly seeking help, i.e. give them suggestions that, based on their background (I would include complex character/personality measures as well), what method might be the most suitable to try. Not saying it would work, but would be interesting, as currently there isn't much guiding these choices.
Unfortunately, it's very hard to do such research studies as people typically drop out when they relapse, so what remains is also biased by default. But we could do surveys on populations recovered long-term (say >a year, less likely to relapse/disappear). given enough funding, because doing these things properly is not cheap. Speaking of the topic of this thread, for example, we could ask what recovery strategy might be the best for someone with lots of adverse childhood experiences. Right now, there is very little that guides treatment providers and even peer groups, and specific suggestions are usually given in a very biased manner based on the preferences of the advisor not the help seeker, or are way too generic. For example, when I respond to the posts of people struggling here, I usually try to consider some background info or impression I have about the poster, but it's extremely limited, subjective and imprecise on a forum like this... kinda shooting in the dark. But if there were solid studies/data of the kinds I'm trying to propose, we could point struggling members to them and encourage them to make more informed choices based on who they are.
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Sonoran Desert & Southeast Asia
Posts: 6,561
Originally Posted by nez
I have spent a fair amount of time traveling and living in what people describe as third world countries.Many times I have discovered the poorest countries exhibit a stronger sense and bond of family with less dysfunction than do the more affluent countries. Being poor can be a hardship but it doesn't proportionally effect level of childhood trauma experienced.
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Join Date: May 2020
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,025
Originally Posted by nez
I have spent a fair amount of time traveling and living in what people describe as third world countries.Many times I have discovered the poorest countries exhibit a stronger sense and bond of family with less dysfunction than do the more affluent countries. Being poor can be a hardship but it doesn't proportionally effect level of childhood trauma experienced.
From Dr. Sharon Moalem:
If you're of Asian descent and have ever had an alcoholic beverage, there’s a fifty-fifty chance your heart rate shot up, your tem- perature climbed, and your face turned bright red. If you’re not Asian but you’ve ever been in a bar frequented by people with an Asian background, chances are you’ve seen this reaction. It’s called Asian flush or, more formally, alcohol flush response. It happens to as many as half of all people of Asian descent, but it’s uncommon in just about every other population group. So what’s the story?
When you consume alcohol, your body detoxifies it and then extracts calories from it. It’s a complex process that involves many different enzymes and multiple organs, although most of the process takes place in the liver. First, an enzyme called alcohol dehy- drogenase converts the alcohol into another chemical called acetaldehyde; another enzyme—cleverly called acetaldehyde de- hydrogenase—converts the acetaldehyde into acetate. And a third enzyme converts that into fat, carbon dioxide, and water. (The calories synthesized from alcohol are generally stored as fat—beer bellies really do come from beer.)
Many Asians have a genetic variation (labeled ALDH2*2) that causes them to produce a less powerful form of acetaldehyde dehydrogenase—one that isn’t as effective in converting acetaledehyde, that first by-product of alcohol, into acetate. Acetaldehyde is thirty times as toxic as alcohol; even very small amounts can produce nasty reactions. And one of those reactions is the flushing response. That’s not all it does, of course. After even one drink by people who have the ALDH2*2 variation, the acetaldehyde buildup causes them to appear drunk; blood rushes to their face, chest, and neck; dizziness and extreme nausea set in—and the drinker is on the road to a nasty hangover. Of course, there’s a side benefit to all this—people who have ALDH2*2 are highly resistant to alcoholism. It’s just too unpleasant for them to drink!
In fact, the resistance to alcoholism is so strong in people with ALDH2*2 that doctors often prescribe alcoholics with a drug called disulfiram, which essentially mirrors the ALDH2*2 effect. Disulfiram (Antabuse) interferes with the body’s own supply of the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme, so anyone who drinks alcohol while taking it ends up with something that looks an awful lot like Asian flush and feels truly awful to boot.
So why is the ALDH2*2 variation so common among Asians and virtually nonexistent among Europeans? It’s all about clean water. As humans began to settle in cities and towns, they got their first taste of the sanitation and waste management problems that still plague cities today—but without even the possibility of modern plumbing. This made clean water a real challenge, and some theories suggest that different civilizations came up with different solutions. In Europe, they used fermentation—and the resulting alcohol killed microbes, even when, as was often the case, it was mixed with water. On the other side of the world, people purified their water by boiling it and making tea. As a result, there was evolutionary pressure in Europe to have the ability to drink, break down, and detoxify alcohol, while the pressure in Asia was a lot less.
Alcohol isn’t the only beverage that requires some specific genetic mutation to enjoy, by the way. If you’re reading this while sipping a latte or slurping an ice cream cone, you’re a mutant. The great majority of the world’s adults cannot eat or drink milk without experiencing a very unpleasant digestive reaction; once they no longer feed on breast milk, their bodies stop producing the enzyme that we need to digest lactose, the main sugar compound in milk. But if you can drink milk without the characteristic bloating, cramping, and diarrhea that signify lactose intolerance, you’re a lucky mutant.You probably are descended from farmers who drank animal milk; somewhere along the line, a mutation sprang up that allowed people to keep producing the lactose-processing enzyme called lactase as adults, and that mutation spread throughout farming populations until it landed in your genome.
When you consume alcohol, your body detoxifies it and then extracts calories from it. It’s a complex process that involves many different enzymes and multiple organs, although most of the process takes place in the liver. First, an enzyme called alcohol dehy- drogenase converts the alcohol into another chemical called acetaldehyde; another enzyme—cleverly called acetaldehyde de- hydrogenase—converts the acetaldehyde into acetate. And a third enzyme converts that into fat, carbon dioxide, and water. (The calories synthesized from alcohol are generally stored as fat—beer bellies really do come from beer.)
Many Asians have a genetic variation (labeled ALDH2*2) that causes them to produce a less powerful form of acetaldehyde dehydrogenase—one that isn’t as effective in converting acetaledehyde, that first by-product of alcohol, into acetate. Acetaldehyde is thirty times as toxic as alcohol; even very small amounts can produce nasty reactions. And one of those reactions is the flushing response. That’s not all it does, of course. After even one drink by people who have the ALDH2*2 variation, the acetaldehyde buildup causes them to appear drunk; blood rushes to their face, chest, and neck; dizziness and extreme nausea set in—and the drinker is on the road to a nasty hangover. Of course, there’s a side benefit to all this—people who have ALDH2*2 are highly resistant to alcoholism. It’s just too unpleasant for them to drink!
In fact, the resistance to alcoholism is so strong in people with ALDH2*2 that doctors often prescribe alcoholics with a drug called disulfiram, which essentially mirrors the ALDH2*2 effect. Disulfiram (Antabuse) interferes with the body’s own supply of the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme, so anyone who drinks alcohol while taking it ends up with something that looks an awful lot like Asian flush and feels truly awful to boot.
So why is the ALDH2*2 variation so common among Asians and virtually nonexistent among Europeans? It’s all about clean water. As humans began to settle in cities and towns, they got their first taste of the sanitation and waste management problems that still plague cities today—but without even the possibility of modern plumbing. This made clean water a real challenge, and some theories suggest that different civilizations came up with different solutions. In Europe, they used fermentation—and the resulting alcohol killed microbes, even when, as was often the case, it was mixed with water. On the other side of the world, people purified their water by boiling it and making tea. As a result, there was evolutionary pressure in Europe to have the ability to drink, break down, and detoxify alcohol, while the pressure in Asia was a lot less.
Alcohol isn’t the only beverage that requires some specific genetic mutation to enjoy, by the way. If you’re reading this while sipping a latte or slurping an ice cream cone, you’re a mutant. The great majority of the world’s adults cannot eat or drink milk without experiencing a very unpleasant digestive reaction; once they no longer feed on breast milk, their bodies stop producing the enzyme that we need to digest lactose, the main sugar compound in milk. But if you can drink milk without the characteristic bloating, cramping, and diarrhea that signify lactose intolerance, you’re a lucky mutant.You probably are descended from farmers who drank animal milk; somewhere along the line, a mutation sprang up that allowed people to keep producing the lactose-processing enzyme called lactase as adults, and that mutation spread throughout farming populations until it landed in your genome.
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Join Date: May 2021
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Hi Snowbunting. I looked over the questions and didnt suffer a lot of those things in my childhood. However I have been in a physically and emotionally abusive situation in my adulthood and have been told it had long range effects on me that I wasnt directly aware of. I did enormous amounts of drinking at all times of the day while in this relationship, which made the nightmare worse I think.
Eventually I exited the situation with the help of therapists and a support group, and I was in a domestic abuse shelter where of course there was no alcohol allowed.
My overall score was a 5.
Eventually I exited the situation with the help of therapists and a support group, and I was in a domestic abuse shelter where of course there was no alcohol allowed.
My overall score was a 5.
Giving up is NOT an option.
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3, but borderline 4. I had a lot of things happen AFTER I was 18, though. Most of the trauma happened in my 20's. And the things that were a part of my childhood REALLY affected me. It really only takes 1. Or none. I think it's all very interesting, but in no way is it a completely accurate predictor.
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