I think I have offended people at AA
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,550
Clear Light:
Yes, and actually I like to think of it this way, "You can do it alone. Folks have. But it tends to be risky". Like climbing a rock face "solo", without a rope. It's safer, and arguably more likely to be effective if you do it in a group, possibly with the help of some experienced climbers. These folks hang around and try to help others with their experience at climbing. Pick the folks with whom you feel most comfortable. For example, I tried to avoid people in boats who scream and yell at you if you make the slightest error. It's better to get a fellow who smiles, pats your back and, well in the old days he'd hand you cigar- something like that anyway. Encouragement, like "Keep trying. Things will get better!" This is what AA "can do" and often does very well. Look for the good stuff. It's there. It doesn't have to be AA but it often is.
W.
Yes, and actually I like to think of it this way, "You can do it alone. Folks have. But it tends to be risky". Like climbing a rock face "solo", without a rope. It's safer, and arguably more likely to be effective if you do it in a group, possibly with the help of some experienced climbers. These folks hang around and try to help others with their experience at climbing. Pick the folks with whom you feel most comfortable. For example, I tried to avoid people in boats who scream and yell at you if you make the slightest error. It's better to get a fellow who smiles, pats your back and, well in the old days he'd hand you cigar- something like that anyway. Encouragement, like "Keep trying. Things will get better!" This is what AA "can do" and often does very well. Look for the good stuff. It's there. It doesn't have to be AA but it often is.
W.
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Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Southern California
Posts: 74
Originally Posted by matt4x4 
deep down in every man woman and child is a fundamental idea of a Higher Power, whatever it may be. Its just blocked right now with you. You can do whatever you want.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
I understand the position the OP is in. When I first came to AA my atheist sensibilities were offended by all the talk of god. In my mind god was for the weak minded, for those who believed in a fantasy because it made them feel good. I had rejected my own religious upbringing and was quite set in my beliefs.
Then a series of events took place which lead me to a very profound spiritual experience. I was afraid to even speak about it at first. My views of many things changed. It took some time to get my barrings after it took place. I seldom speak of it anymore because those who have never had such an intense experience cannot relate to it, and those of an atheist or agnostic persuasion tend to just dismiss it. This does not bother me. I completely understand their response. I would have done exactly the same thing in the past. Other peoples beliefs do not particularly bother me today, unless those beliefs lead to actions that actively harm others or have the potential of doing so. IMO just expressing beliefs does not fall into that category.
As for the chapter “We Agnostics” being “pompous, arrogant, and condescending”, I must disagree. I just think it's written from a radically different perspective.
Then a series of events took place which lead me to a very profound spiritual experience. I was afraid to even speak about it at first. My views of many things changed. It took some time to get my barrings after it took place. I seldom speak of it anymore because those who have never had such an intense experience cannot relate to it, and those of an atheist or agnostic persuasion tend to just dismiss it. This does not bother me. I completely understand their response. I would have done exactly the same thing in the past. Other peoples beliefs do not particularly bother me today, unless those beliefs lead to actions that actively harm others or have the potential of doing so. IMO just expressing beliefs does not fall into that category.
As for the chapter “We Agnostics” being “pompous, arrogant, and condescending”, I must disagree. I just think it's written from a radically different perspective.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dubai
Posts: 99
Originally Posted by matt4x4
deep down in every man woman and child is a fundamental idea of a Higher Power, whatever it may be. Its just blocked right now with you. You can do whatever you want.
Feel free to say 'I told you so' if I have changed my mind in six months, but I can't see it happening.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Auburn, WA
Posts: 1
Hello,
I may be stepping out of line here, but I feel exactly the same way you do. Tangents are my thing, and if for any reason I've overstepped a boundary please alert me. Below is a little of how I am still sober, almost at 3 years without the reliance on faith based 12 step programs...
I have been sober since August of 2011 - I have not relied on 12 step meetings, I have not been accepting of the faith portion of recovery. I attended meetings, worked with a sponsor but I could not continue feeling like I was forcing myself to join a group that I didn't agree with. It may have been the city I was located in, it may have been me exhibiting my addict behaviors but I simply could not work an honest program in a place where I didn't agree with their basic principals. I quit attending meetings but remained close with my sober network of friends.
With my mother and sister's guidance I looked into treatment and where I live at the time I qualified to get into treatment for a month. While there I learned about my behavior patterns, why I was using. I used drugs and alcohol to cope with my core belief that I was worthless and I used negative behaviors to confirm or validate those feelings. Negative behaviors as in abusing others, abusing substances, inappropriate relationships etc.
I was asked "So you can't even be sober to hang out with yourself? You have to be loaded to be in the same room with yourself?"
Those questions stuck with me. Because I did not enjoy alcohol or drugs perse, I hated feeling. I hated who I was and drugs and alcohol enabled me to not feel. Today, I still struggle with who I am, but I lack the compulsion to use which is SO beneficial - but I work every day on my core issues and I hit 3 years on August 20th.
Don't get me wrong; my way has been daunting, lonely and often frustrating. But I made the commitment to sober up, relinquishing my decision to stay sober and thank something, or someone else is hard to do. I fought hard to get sober, saying a HP guided me makes my blood boil.
But to the point I was trying to make, we're sober - we want to better our lives. Going to those meetings is hard when all you want to do is scoff at those who praise their higher powers...but if your only source of sober support where you're at is those meetings I promise you will meet someone who will accept that and ensure you are not alone.
You're worth the fight.
I may be stepping out of line here, but I feel exactly the same way you do. Tangents are my thing, and if for any reason I've overstepped a boundary please alert me. Below is a little of how I am still sober, almost at 3 years without the reliance on faith based 12 step programs...
I have been sober since August of 2011 - I have not relied on 12 step meetings, I have not been accepting of the faith portion of recovery. I attended meetings, worked with a sponsor but I could not continue feeling like I was forcing myself to join a group that I didn't agree with. It may have been the city I was located in, it may have been me exhibiting my addict behaviors but I simply could not work an honest program in a place where I didn't agree with their basic principals. I quit attending meetings but remained close with my sober network of friends.
With my mother and sister's guidance I looked into treatment and where I live at the time I qualified to get into treatment for a month. While there I learned about my behavior patterns, why I was using. I used drugs and alcohol to cope with my core belief that I was worthless and I used negative behaviors to confirm or validate those feelings. Negative behaviors as in abusing others, abusing substances, inappropriate relationships etc.
I was asked "So you can't even be sober to hang out with yourself? You have to be loaded to be in the same room with yourself?"
Those questions stuck with me. Because I did not enjoy alcohol or drugs perse, I hated feeling. I hated who I was and drugs and alcohol enabled me to not feel. Today, I still struggle with who I am, but I lack the compulsion to use which is SO beneficial - but I work every day on my core issues and I hit 3 years on August 20th.
Don't get me wrong; my way has been daunting, lonely and often frustrating. But I made the commitment to sober up, relinquishing my decision to stay sober and thank something, or someone else is hard to do. I fought hard to get sober, saying a HP guided me makes my blood boil.
But to the point I was trying to make, we're sober - we want to better our lives. Going to those meetings is hard when all you want to do is scoff at those who praise their higher powers...but if your only source of sober support where you're at is those meetings I promise you will meet someone who will accept that and ensure you are not alone.
You're worth the fight.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by awuh1
I seldom speak of it anymore because those who have never had such an intense experience cannot relate to it, and those of an atheist or agnostic persuasion tend to just dismiss it.
A spiritual friend of mine said to me the other day, "Well, you atheists don't believe in anything." It is a misconception that nontheists don't have a strong sense of morality, of right speech and right action, of interconnectness to other beings, of right and wrong, a sense of obligation to the greater good, and the capability of having a deep profound change of heart or complete mind shift...an awakening. For those of us who do not believe in the afterlife, you better believe we strive to make every day mean something. It's all there is, so make it count.
Not being able to swallow that only a power outside myself can relieve me of my addiction, does not mean that I don't acknowledge that there are greater forces in the universe. It just means that I am unwilling to abdicate responsibility for ending my addiction to said forces/powers. I mean I can't snap my fingers and cause the light bulbs to light up in my home. I acknowledge that electricity is a power greater than me. But what in the Sam Hill does that have to do with me putting booze in my bod?
Also, there are droves of religious and spiritual people who take a secular approach to ending their addiction. Kind of a separation of church and state sort of thing. It doesn't mean God or a higher power doesn't belong in their lives, it just means they don't mix it in with stopping their addiction. No matter what you believe, getting out from under an addiction can be done. It absolutely can be done.
I'm sorry for those who have encountered one too many "angry atheists". I've encountered them too, and I've encountered a fair share of angry judgmental believers, but I try not to make negative judgements about an entire group based on the actions of a few.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Central Massachusetts
Posts: 2,051
@soberlicious, Wonderfully put. Your post largely mirrors my view of spirituality and addiction. I actually was an ardent believer years into the program, despite having been raised as a cultural, but largely secular, catholic. It's funny, but since my relapse in 2010 I've found more solace in my agnostic roots than in the program or any organized religion. I'm two years into sobriety this time around and, like you, I've had a deeply personal epiphany that is not tied to any particular doctrine.
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,369
Originally Posted by rhodie
. I was reading somewhere that if you were an atheist or a homosexual, you just did not fit in with AA, how true this is, I don't know, but it sounds discriminating to me.
D
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
In AA we just need the drunk to accept or become willing to accept that self reliance has failed them and that they need to rely on someone or something else. I say someone because when i first got sober the only reason I got through steps 2 and 3 was because I had to trust someone else and that was a guy that I asked to be my sponsor.
I went to a religion based school so did not want to hear about God. I expressed this concern and my sponsor said that I could forget all the things I had been taught about god because it was wrong, I said to him do you believe in something more and he said yes so I said ok then I believe the same even though I don't know what it is yet!
When working through the steps something changed in me and, over time, I began to believe that there was something more out there. My belief, which has been proved by science, us that we are surrounded by energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed, and we are made up partly of energy too. Bearing in mind it cannot be created or destroyed then my energy must remain and, I guess, when I die go somewhere else...maybe into a new born rabbit...I dunno?!
So anyway without working the steps I wouldn't have a higher power and without a higher power I wouldn't be sober because I would still believe that my higher power was me and that didn't work out very well for me.
In hindsight I guess I was lucky with the God thing because I would have believed in the Easter Bunny if it meant that my living hell could end and I could be sober.
I laughed at the post about homosexuality and atheism in AA not being welcome, I shall inform these people tomorrow night at the meeting...jeez imagine if I shared that I would get literally thrown out!
I went to a religion based school so did not want to hear about God. I expressed this concern and my sponsor said that I could forget all the things I had been taught about god because it was wrong, I said to him do you believe in something more and he said yes so I said ok then I believe the same even though I don't know what it is yet!
When working through the steps something changed in me and, over time, I began to believe that there was something more out there. My belief, which has been proved by science, us that we are surrounded by energy and energy cannot be created or destroyed, and we are made up partly of energy too. Bearing in mind it cannot be created or destroyed then my energy must remain and, I guess, when I die go somewhere else...maybe into a new born rabbit...I dunno?!
So anyway without working the steps I wouldn't have a higher power and without a higher power I wouldn't be sober because I would still believe that my higher power was me and that didn't work out very well for me.
In hindsight I guess I was lucky with the God thing because I would have believed in the Easter Bunny if it meant that my living hell could end and I could be sober.
I laughed at the post about homosexuality and atheism in AA not being welcome, I shall inform these people tomorrow night at the meeting...jeez imagine if I shared that I would get literally thrown out!
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