EndGameNYC

Went to my regular Big Book meeting tonight. It's a group of people who've been around for awhile, and also attracts some new people from time to time. As is true of most AA meetings I've attended, some of the new people stay while most disappear. I often hear about some of them later on...being in jail, back in rehab, homeless, out there indulging their addictions, dying...the usual stuff.

Anyway, there's a guy I met at these meeting two-and-a-half years ago following my three-year relapse, who had several months of sobriety at that time...booze and crack. He's relapsed a few times since I met him. I'm good friends with his sponsor, and I know that this guy refuses to surrender to his addictions, insisting along the way to do things his way. In all the time I've known him, I've seen very little change over time. He's got several things to deal with, including two ex-wives, child support, Facebook addiction and chronically getting fired from a variety of mostly service jobs due to his "attitude."

So he came back last week after another, recent relapse. On the verge of homelessness, unemployed, broke and manipulating everyone in his path to get what he wants. His sponsor calls him on his stuff, and he typically insists that he's "working on it," but never puts in any effort to change. After tonight's meeting, another guy I know from the meeting pulled me aside to tell me that he saw guy #1 rifling through one of the women's purses while we were breaking down the meeting, and that guy #1 saw guy #2 glance over at him while going through this woman's purse. Guy #2 asked me for guidance, and I recommended that he speak to his sponsor, who also attends the same meeting.

It's a sad thing to acknowledge, and my intention is not to bring anyone down, but there are people who simply refuse to change as part of their recovery, and who then either continue to relapse throughout their lives or never quite get there in terms of sobriety. It's obvious, but also sometimes very subtle, that when we continue to be the same jerkoff when we're abstinent as we were when we were drinking, then the only guarantee is that the suffering will continue and that everyone in our forever-shrinking "circle" will remain victims to our affliction.

ScottFromWI

Gotta be honest, I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying it get across.

FeelingGreat

Hi Endgame, that's not just A behaviour, it's criminal behaviour and if I was the owner of the purse, I would hope that guy #2 would shout it out loud and clear so everyone knew.
Agree there is no hope ATM for #1.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, sadly not everybody who struggles with quitting also struggles with seriously changing out there lifestyle. My number one problem before I got serious with quitting was my trying to stay unchanged and quit anyways. What a mess I made of myself and any real chances of staying quit and happily living drunk free was essentially zero. My refusal to change simply doomed me. When I finally saw the writing on the wall, and surrendered my refusal in exchange for some openness, humility, and flexibility -- well, things worked out and staying quit worked too.

I have a lot of empathy for those who struggle with changing themselves and their lives out for the better. For those who won't struggle with anything except the drink itself, I have mostly sadness and remorse for their wasted life. I use to be angry about it all too, but that was a long time ago and in early sobriety.

You did the right thing here, EndGame. Good on you, man.

Notimetoloose

I am in two minds about this. It clearly is awful behavior. It also screams addict behavior.

Many addict will do things that would not even enter their minds if they are healthy and straight....

I don't know, I think calling him out publicly could alienate him further. However addressing him on the side, with the witness might be just the thing to tip him back into getting real about his addiction....addiction sucks.

RobbyRobot

Tough choices for sure. I agree about not making things openly public, no real need for humiliation, its enough he got caught rifling through others stuff. As for it would teach him a final lesson - I dunno. Maybe, but doubtful. I think he knew he was gonna get caught, doing it in the open, but what do I know? I wasn't there and I'm not the guy. Miracles do happen. Active addiction really does suck.

EndGameNYC

Fair enough. I don't know that I was attempting to make a point. Just unloading a disturbing experience for me in so many ways.

Sacamedeaqui

I have no empathy for a man rifling through a woman's purse, addict or not it's unacceptable criminal behaviour and it should have been dealt with there and then. Would it have sent guy #1 back into his addiction? Who cares, that's his problem. There are consequences to everyone's actions and how he chooses to respond to those consequences...is his responsibility. It doesn't sound like he wants to change in any case.

Guy #2 has no backbone and needs to take a long hard look in the mirror. He needed to ask your guidance? Whatever he is doing is not working. He may be sober but he has lost something. My guidance would have been "grow a pair".

Some things need to be nipped in the bud. That's the bottom line.

jdooner

Endgame - I have one meeting that I am really close to a core group of people who run the meeting - maybe 8 to 10 of us. There are newcomers all the time, some are forced to be there and you can tell - some fall asleep, some even snore and some are just disengaged. Oh one guy brought up how he is sober 90 days but smoking pot every day. So I can relate to a certain extent.

For me I was really lucky. Two weeks into sobriety I went to Singapore for my annual F1 race guys weekend. Everyone on here advised me not to go but I am glad I had the classic Addict mindset at the time and did it my way, lol. Anyhow, I had a spiritual experience in the sense that I saw myself in the people I was with and it repulsed me. It allowed me to see where my life was going, empty, showing off, insecure. Then I tried to do the things I did but sober and that sucked. So it was a big wake-up that if I was serious then I had to change everything and really tear down the fabric of my life, which I have done. I hit six months shortly.

afloatsober

I get your point. It is all about change. I screwed about for years talking about the changes i woulda,coulda,shoulda made... I was simply not prepared to make profound, meaningful and sometimes damn difficult changes. Changes that sometimes took time and above all changes that others suggested, that I did not agree with. ME!! The bloke that knew so very much and was so good for himself that he damn near drank himself to death.
LOL. Can see it now but it took a whole lot of pain to get there.
But all of us can do it. Every one of us if we want it bad enough...IMO

Joe Nerv

Also not sure exactly what you're asking , but supposing it's just a vent of sorts, and desire to address the pocketbook incident. That kind of stuff really saddens me, as I like to consider AA a safe haven. Even in NYC. Most people I know respect it and don't pull that kind of crap at meetings. I've always felt safe leaving my stuff lying around, even my cellphone on the table when I went off to the bathroom or to talk to somebody. Actually don't know if I'd do that though at one of the bigger city meetings... anyhow, I knew lots and lots of creepy people in AA, but they always took their stupid behavior outside the rooms. One chronic relapser even told me that he knew AA was his lifeline, and he'd never even consider messing with anyone there. I really don't think he ever did.

As for the not changing thing, I've got a similar person in my life right now, and it's beyond frustrating. A girl that I've known for a while and work with from time to time is claiming to have close to 90 days, yet she's a complete mess and I don't believe her. Other people I know keep running into her at bars at 2AM, she's hanging with a horrible crowd, she seems nothing at all like the sober girl I knew, and she texts me about how much of a struggle it is for her this time. Have to admit I'm at a bit of a loss for how exactly to deal with her. I've already said all I can possibly say, and she seems intent on killing herself. I've seen it happen before, and I really believe she's close to the end... it's really sad. I actually considered putting up a long detailed post on the family side of this board, but the girl is also an internet junkie, and I was concerned about her possibly reading it :/ . Which would x me out of her life. She doesn't listen to me, but I know she trusts and respects me. Wouldn't want to lose that.

Interesting you mention the facebook addiction too, cuz she absolutely has that, and in a real horrible and ugly way. She requested me as a friend (on the 2 accounts I have), then deleted and blocked me (and all other AA people) because someone in the rooms asked her what was up with her facebook posts. They're all incredibly angry, man hating, and teen (even tween) like, and she's a woman in her mid thirties. Seeing her posts was like watching a really horrible train wreck. Anyhow, I'm ranting now. Really feel I needed to get that out though. Hey, you might even know the girl I'm talking about, cuz she makes meetings all over the place.

Das all. No wisdom to offer you, but I'm sharing a somewhat similar experience.

RobbyRobot

I've learned the hard way its best to think all the angles out else I risk judging others so harshly that justice takes a powder while I'm being obtuse. There is nothing about consulting with a fellow member about whatever happened in that scene that equates to mean guy #2 needs to 'grow a pair'. There is more depth to sobriety and fellowship within AA than simply running around nipping things in the bud to suit myself, for me anyways.

As for who cares if an addict goes back out? I care. And your right, consequences are our responsibility to do with as we see fit. Its ironic for me that I'm extending to you in my post the unearned respect for your standing in sobriety that you deem unnecessary to extend to guy #2. How we judge others eventually comes back around and we discover we have also judged ourselves. That's my bottom line.

sugarbear1

The purse incident should have been stopped immediately.

MarathonMan

sacamedeaqui.....you seem very angry, maybe put the keyboard down and go for a walk.

freethinking

Not that I like the direction this thread is going, but I more or less had the same reaction to this post as Sac. I think being newly sober, a lot of us come across as angry at times. I get disgusted and p*ssed off very easily these days...about everything.

Sacamedeaqui

I'm not angry at all, I'm actually in a great humour! But I appreciate your concern and your suggestion. Very kind of you.

I stated that I was bowing out of the em...discussion. Maybe you did not notice that part.

foolsgold66

You may think as you like. I believe I interpreted it justa fine. I'm not AA. Have a good day.

jaynie04

Here's my take. What about the women whose purses were being rifled through? What if one of them had just gotten her first paycheck at the first job she had held since getting sober? Maybe another had her rent in an envelope? Or a woman who had just gotten a credit card in her own name after escaping an abusive spouse?

I believe that there are certain behaviors which must be absolutes whether in or out of AA. Guy #1 could have attended the meeting simply because he knows how the end of the hour goes and has observed that purses are left on chairs unattended. Unfortunately there are some people who will never get sober or play by the rules, I don't believe it means that people who happen to be in their path have to suffer while that person figures it out.

I think in terms of a fellowship practicing patience and tolerance is a gift that members bestow upon each other. But not acting logically when someone is taking advantage of someone not only harms the victim, but patronizes the perp.

foolsgold66

That's a meaningful thought. I was angry and disgusted and p*ssed off the first hundred or so times I quit. I learn very slowly despite intelligence, and one of the things I'm learning is to actively counteract that as much as possible, to try to find more peace with my own failings and not push myself back into the cycle through them. I fell (dove) again recently, got back up, and am not so angry about any of it, and am experiencing a little bit of joy. That's a wonderful thing, to me...

freethinking

Thanks

Joy - haven't felt that in ages....