Cantos

Sort of missed this last night due to massive self-focusing, but being THE Virgin Mary massively outweighs being THE Hunter S. Thompson (ENFP), and you therefore officially win.

Mentium

In my professional life I had to do these sorts of tests several times and as someone involved in recruiting many staff over the years I used them too. Personally I don't like them. They 'type' people and people are not types - they are much more flexible and adaptable than that - and brave enough to change if they have to. I think they label people and categorise them - and potentially in this particular case, block potentially helpful routes to recovery. People must do what they do of course, but I would be focusing on recovery rather than potential impediments to it.

2muchpain

There was a guy at an AA meeting that I used to go to that said how long it takes for someone to get into the program depended on how educated he was. A high school graduate will understand and work the program in less time than someone with four years of college. It takes even longer if you have a Masters, and a real long time if you have a PHD. He actually had it broken down in terms of the amount of time it takes with each level of education, but I don't remember how it went. Being fairly educated, based on his theory, it would take me a very long time to accept the AA program. I also wondered what it says about people that are not that educated. Sounded like a put-down on both ends of this spectrum.

2muchpain

This might sound a little strange, but the path in life depends on their personality, whether it be a profession or personal interests. For example, a person that is great with computers and is happy with a job where he sits in front of a computer all day, but would be miserable as a construction worker. I became a teacher because my personality type fit it, but I'd make a horrible cop because I'd hear all those sad stories and give everybody a break. The point I am trying to make is that AA is great for some people but not everybody (although people in AA would disagree with this). That's why its nice to have SMART or RR. One size does not fit all. Life would be pretty boring if it wasn't that way.

2muchpain

speech, speech!

EverySngleNight

That's a REALLY good point! LOL

Those types of phrases (which I'm pretty sure are not in BB?) actually embody and sum up what a lot of people can't resign theselves to. For some, it's difficult to reconcile themselves with a program where critical thinking and individuality are potentially discouraged- especially if it in any way seems surreptitious. I find it interesting because I like learning about mass movements.

I was hoping the poster who suggested googling terminal uniqueness, would explain what it means to them. It's really easy to lose meaning through text. It was hard to tell whether it was meant to be facetious, without knowing what the phrase means to them. To me, it sorta' read as "death or conformity"- and I thought "NO! Surely that's not what they mean. Right?" I still don't know!! LOL It doesn't really matter I guess.Just curious.

Cantos

Totes agreed. Although I think it must be frustrating for people who have ticked boxes A, B, C, Z, (and 42), to be constantly faced with newbies who find flaws in the system, and that's how I interpreted it. And... yup: guilty. I would argue that if there was a perfect system then, well, there wouldn't be any problems and we'd all be dancing merrily towards the sunset with a bottle of water and a soundtrack written by Disney. My answer is that we need to keep searching for ways to improve programs and responses, and that asking questions about how contemporary sociocultural theories can be utilised within the context of addiction recovery should be something that researchers take seriously.

The question of language with regards to recovery is absolutely fascinating, and there are hardly any articles on it. It is interesting that each approach adopts a significant rhetoric and sticks with it. Not going to say any is better or worse, or does or doesn't work, because I'm in no place to make those calls and don't want to disrespect anyone. But it is a very pertinent point that you make.

marchHazel

I am new again. I know I have to change. For so long Ive been making every excuse I can not to stop. I still am. i don't see how I can ever stop drinking and using narcotics without the help of cannabis. So I can't even say I have a day sober or clean. I really just have a day without drinking or using hard. Still. For me its a start. Going to be rough but Im just seeing my way isn't working and Im hurting. What used to help me isn't anymore like it used to and just ends up making my life more difficult. I isolate and my mind is so negative so bad. i know things can get a lot worse too. The self loathing and embarrassing myself. I would spend time writing. It helps me at times sort out my thinking and being a loner I don't talk to anyone. I would get loaded and write such crazy stuff. Then sending the nasty grams to friends and family when Im really loaded. I cannot use social media anymore. I know Im depressing too. In the past I thought I was clever and may have been but now its just a detriment to my reputation. I know I have to stop drinking and using. Its just my favorite thing to do. I do see though how bad things have gotten and right now i just don't want to waste my time spending the day loaded but Im still craving and having to push the thoughts of using out of my head as the come into mind.

reading stuff here has been helping me a lot. Im not sure I'll be able to get myself to AA again but probably when it gets bad enough I might. Im still don't really even have a day. id still smoke cannabis if i had it. Thats my issue as I see cannabis as a help to me and better for me than if I took the psych meds DR's would prescribe for me again. helps me much more. Anyway. Its the booze and hard that are making my life such a mess and what I know I have to stop.

Take care. hang in there.

Cantos

I've found the Jung personality test and the Enneagram (as suggested by one user in this post) really useful so far. Jung seems to tell you all the good things about yourself, Enneagram tends to focus on why you have problems. My Jung told me that I'm bouncing from one happy thing to the next and trying to keep the buzz alive, and that I've made being in a... slightly altered mind state, as it were... a vital part of my personal value system. Enneagram told me that I can't let go of the past which is why I consciously and unconsciously justify my behaviour, and that is SO true. Neither tells me how to get over that, but I like being armed with knowledge when I go into any battle. They've both got flaws. However, I'd always found myself a bit mysterious (couldn't understand why I do what I do, so lots of things people told me I should and shouldn't be doing and feeling didn't make sense) before seeing it written down.

Branches

If you google Terminal Uniqueness, you will find a SR thread on this very subject from 2009.

Of course we are all as unique as snowflakes, but the thing we have in common is addiction. And it's a great leveler and no respecter of persons. If we use our uniqueness as a form of denying the extent of our addiction (I may be a a heavy drinker, but I'm not an alcoholic. I've never had a DUI. I go to work every day, blah, blah, blah) or that because of our "specialness" we need a certain "unique" recovery style, the chances increase that our addiction will be terminal.

Cantos

If you read back over the thread we've accepted terminal uniqueness, which was defined early on in the discussion; and I've clarified that the OS could have been written better: traditional methods haven't worked *yet*, but that's mostly due to lack of effort. What we're exploring here is theories of personality types (16 generic types) and whether this has any impact on recovery. For instance, whether having a tendency towards introversion or extroversion has an impact on the way that an individual engages with his or her addiction and approaches his or her recovery.

Marcher13

Cantos if you are talking about the Myers-Briggs test I was extreme ENFP about 20 years ago, last time I took the test I was tending to I and J, apparently changes in the characteristics are common throughout life. Quite honestly I don't think personality type has too much to do with the decision to become sober, it may have something to do with the support systems we choose.

You said the usual methods don't work for you -- what do you mean by this? If you are referring to a support system then you'll find that members of SR are quite different -- some go for AA, some for rational recovery, some for rehab and so on. The commonality is that we all have an addiction and we choose to put down the drink/drug of our choice. Making that decision has nothing to do with personality type, it has everything to do with what you value in your life.

What did you do during the three months you successfully remained sober?

sugarbear1

Working the steps of AA is an experience, not an intellectual exercise.

Try to explain an experience---the aroma of a rose, for example, to someone else.....

Very difficult to do.

Smell the aroma of a rose; now that is an experience!

Cantos

I agree that personality types are tenuous at best, and I've definitely wavered between E and I at times. I agree that everyone approaches the world in different ways, but that the fundamental problem is the same.

At the risk of pouring my life out all over public forums (but happy to do so if it is of use to anyone), during my last sober spell I did what would be considered either RR or AVRT, but without planning to. I just said "no", and that was that. I had open bottles in the house, and a lodger who drank from morning to night. I hosted several parties, went to pubs and clubs, but I didn't drink at all and didn't miss it. This is clearly a way for me to get sober. However, during that time I often felt small and lonely, distant and isolated, and like I was missing a vital piece of "me". I guess this is very common, but it really bothered me. It wasn't just that I was losing connections with friends, but that I felt like I was left alone with myself and that I couldn't connect with the world that I so much loved to connect with. By connecting with the world, I mean a sort of euphoric love of everything from plants to animals to buildings to ideas. I've been wondering whether there is a tension between the fact that I was an E as a child, had some challenges as a young teen and became an I for about 10 years (and I hated being an I), and that drinking makes me an E again. It's all speculation and hypothesis of course, and no doubt everyone who gets sober feels a loss of self and has to man up and get over it like I'll have to. The idea of whether different personality types approach and manage this process in different ways is an interesting one though.

Dee74

I felt that many times too, in many unsuccessful attempts at lasting abstinence.

I think, to have lasting success, you need to have a second phase to that plan...building a life that better reflects the sober you.

My old life was great...if you were a drunk...but totally deficient for the sober me that was emerging.

I had to build a new life that I loved, and one I didn't want to put in jeopardy again by drinking.

D

miamifella

You seem to be using the Myer-Briggs the same way addicts/alcoholics typically use their DOC. You are using it to distance yourself from your own experience. Why would you need a framework to explain your interactions with the world? You should be able to understand yourself based on first-hand experience/observation. Your personality type is a convenient way to avoid really seeing/feeling/experiencing your life. You have a neat box that allows you to sidestep self reflection. It has the added bonus of letting you see your personality as something immutable, so you do not have to imaging who you could become.

Myers-Briggs is often misunderstood. It can be a great tool for certain uses. But it is a poor tool for self-understanding. But addicts typically like definitive, simple, clear answers and M-B provides that.

EverySngleNight

*Disclaimer- psychoanalysis that I likely have no business attempting!!

This tells me that you are filling a void with alcohol. (which you probably know!:-)) While that IS common- it really varies in it's depth depending on the person. I'm wondering whether you started drinking at a young age?

Part of long term recovery for you may need to include finding the source of that disconnect. When did you disconnect from yourself or the world around you, and when did alcohol make you feel "whole" for the first time? What was your life like then? When did you lose that "vital" piece of you? When did you feel small, distant, and isolated for the first time? I'm guessing that those feelings may've once been quite literal! Maybe in childhood? Maybe not...

Alcohol makes us feel like we're connecting deeply, when in reality the connection is very superficial. Drinking feels good but it's actually a very dissociative experience.

As humans, we need to feel and connect- with each other and also with ourselves! Depending on what you're dealing with at your core, alcohol MAY be helping you to feel a sense of connection that you (we all) deeply long for, while protecting you from having to do so in a way that -for some reason- may be too much for you. Or, you may not have learned the skill of connecting in an authentic way (parents?), and the alcohol helps to (IMO falsely) alleviate the sense of loneliness, that would naturally result in any human lacking that skill.

Either way, there is ALWAYS more to the story. Maybe you rely strongly on knowing about your personality type in an intellectual way- in order to feel more connected to yourself. If that (or any of this) is the case, there is a GOOD chance that a deeper issue exists and needs to be addressed, in order for you to maintain sobriety.

Maybe the recovery models you've looked to in the past, haven't/CAN'T sufficiently address those issues. I can only speak from my own experience. So, I don't know whether ANY of this applies to you. Just wanted to put it out there in case it's of any help.

My sobriety has definitely required more of a healing than would be available through standard recovery methods. It took a long time and a lot of growth for me to be even remotely emotionally capable of delving into all that. That's why I so firmly believe that sobriety is a learning process, that you can't "get" all at once, but can "get" through trial and error (though some never do)- by staying dedicated to the process of TRY.

Inquisitively peeling things back layer by layer, may not be the easiest/fastest/most intuitive path for some- but absolutely necessary for others.
Maybe you can relate.

-INFP ;-)

awuh1

Cantos, keep in mind that the different dimensions of the personality test refer to preferences. For example, in some situations an individual might behave more like an extravert, though typically they behave in an introverted manor (and test out as such on the Myers-Briggs). Both sides of these personality dimensions exist within each of us. Different situations, however, seem to bring out behaviors that correspond (or not) with an individuals general preferences.

It makes me speculate that other things being equal, an introvert might be more inclined to use rational recovery rather than AA, because the former involves less contact with others. I can also imagine that many introverts might not do well without face to face support, and could also need an approach that has a more spiritual component. In these cases the introverts needs (face to face support and a spiritual component) would overwhelm their preferences (engaging the world in a mostly solitary way).

A few years ago I found a Myers-Briggs test I had taken decades ago when I was just starting in my occupation. Back then I had tested out as a T on the thinking-feeling dimension of the test. Now I test out as an F. My occupation seems to have changed my preferences.

You do what you have to do to get things done, even though it might not be comfortable... at first.