Struggling with Step 2...
 

I live in Oklahoma, my group as a whole is really pushing Christianity on me. They mean well, I am trying to go at my own pace though. I DO have an open heart and I have the willingness. The more they push, the more angry I become. I am Agnostic, how do I forget the science books and theories for a second to see if their god is right for me?:gaah

first and foremost NO ONE Should be "Pushing" anything on you in AA.. and Welcome to SR Arbigyle! this is a Great site.. :welcome

In Chapter, "We Agnostics" is a good read.
I agree with 24hrsAday and if I could add to this, if possible for you, search out more meetings and find one you are comfortable with.
It's your journey.

Hi. I might suggest a group your more comfortable with. AA seems to have differently based ideas from where I am. Sure we talk about praying for help to stay away from the first drink etc., but I don't recall any religious organizations mentioned at meetings except occasionally when someone says in passing that they returned to their House Of Worship. This is part of what's read before every meeting around here and it's a short version of AAs traditions which is the foundation of AA. So to me what's happening is against the traditions:
"The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
There are no dues or fees for A.A. membership; we are self supporting
through our own contributions. A.A. is not allied with
any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does
not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor
opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and
help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety." BE WELL

A greater power can be very personal. I have to agree that no one at AA should push any greater power. Do you have other meetings that you can attend?

I have read it many times, another meeting isn't an option I go to all 4 in my area, even drive 30 miles to one in Texas.

I get so defensive in the meetings...I told them I was an agnostic and every time the subject comes up I feel like I am being preached to.:headbange

No, I have tried them all in a 30 mile radius. They mean well, they seem as though they are not remembering what the big book says. They just pick and choose the suggestions they like. It makes me feel uncomfortable sometimes.

Example: I said something to the effect of, "How do I forget or unlearn science and theory? I need proof there is a god or power greater than me."

A gentleman told a story of a guy like me. He said the guy was a skeptic and said he would just try this praying thing for a while...he said "I will pray for the sunglasses I lost." So this guy goes to a gas station and the the attendant found his sunglasses and returned them.

He is now a Christian. I said, "The only thing I want from this story is proof, I wanna talk to these two men."

Then another gentleman butted in and said(in redneck voice), "You know humans wrote those science books, worms and dirt did not make man, GOD did." I replied, "Humans wrote the bible as well." I cross-talked :/

So another gentleman told me to make a list of things that I would want from a higher power and pray to that piece of paper. The worm and dirt gentleman, coughed and said "********".

A week later they had a talk with this guy about respecting others belief or non-belief.

Perhaps you might mention it's against the Traditions and at a discussion have the preamble discussed, gad it's as plain as daylight. BE WELL

It's one of the issue that I can't do AA myself, as an atheist. Have you ever try SOS or Rational Recovery? It maybe more for you good luck.

I agree that no one should be pushing religion on you. But you say you are willing. The Book says that is all that is necessary to make your beginning. You need not know, or understand what it is you believe in as long as you are willing to believe that there is something greater than you that can help you. THis willingness is sufficient regardless of how limited your understanding of a Higher Power may be at this time. Through working the steps you grow and come to know more of what or who your higher power is.

Anyone that says different is not talking AA IMO. The steps, although rooted in Christianity, are not a religion. They are quite broad and open to anyone who wishes to explore.

Do you have a sponsor in this group?

I'm sorry you are dealing with this but it IS awesome that you are dealing, not letting it keep you from meetings, etc.

One thing that is often heard in meeting is "more will be revealed", so when they start pushing or making pointed suggestions, rather than argue or even defend your own beliefs, maybe point out that you are confident that more will be revealed as you work the steps, and that your HP will become more clear to you.

For most of us that has been the case. We trust there is SOMETHING that can keep us sober. We accept that we don't have to define it and we move forward. At some point what that something is may start to make sense for us. But we don't need to define it, in fact it's better if we DON'T define it because that can shut us off from the realm of possibility.

It seems my beliefs are more along the line of yours. I had many people say or hint, with a wink and a knowing nod that in a short time I'd come round to their HP. It bothered me a great deal in the beginning, but there were always those that did tell me to keep an open mind, not bother about those folks and trust that more will be revealed and the only HP I needed to bother with was the one of my own understanding, or as the case might be my own uncertainty!

Since step 2 asks that I come to believe that something can save me from insanity, and I saw a lot of people before me get sober, I was able to allow that there is something that can help people stay sober. I was able to move forward. I've had to come back to step 3 several times when I stalled later on down the road and saw that was a sticky place for me. But it's been worth it and I have made real and purposeful progress.

The reason why I quit AA is because I am agnostic also. There are other ways to overcome addiction. I am doing it largely by myself, but I live with my dad and he's a recovering alcoholic also. We give each other support.

The 12 steps don't work for everyone.

Tell them that you are starting to get a higher power and that Islam really interests you :e124:
It would be interesting then to see what they do and if they keep on with AA or come out of the closet as a Christian group. My home group has a gamut of all faiths and not including two African born Muslims. We work the steps,we do not proselytize for our personal religions.

I can really relate Arbigyle, this is a big hangup of mine to with AA. I have read the chapter to the agnostics several times too. I have also read/watched/heard a lot of science stuff. I am agnostic, and probably lean a little more towards the atheist side. I have a really hard time with step 2, and then step 3 too.

My sister, who is in AA, will talk about how she KNOWS there's a God, etc. You can't even have a discussion about it. I think a lot of people are like that. Fortunately, I go to meetings where people don't talk about God a lot and don't force it on you. There are definitely other people in AA that have doubts, unfortunately it just doesn't sound like they are at your meeting.

What does your sponsor say about this?

All the best.

Bob R

The important thing, arguably the only thing, is to stop drinking. And AA clearly says that
"the only requirement for membership is the willingness to stop drinking." And the preamble clearly states that AA is not affiliated with any creed, etc. AA is available to Buddhists, followers of Islam, and, yes, Agnostics and even Atheists. The Big Book says this even though it does seem to contradict itself a bit when it refers to a "Higher Power, which is God".
There are AA groups for Agnostics and Atheists, but often only in metropolitan areas. I found one particularly helpful for myself although I am not an agnostic or atheist. It's a pity that you have not access to one of these. Anyway, why not try this. When they go on about how religious they are, why not smile and practice tolerance, understanding, forgiveness, humility, the way that the Buddha might respond to this challenge. Smile, nod your head and, perhaps with a sad look, say that you understand, that you are so glad that they have found a faith. When they ask if the same is true for you say, "Perhaps. Thank you for your loving concern. May your God bless you for that." Respond with love, understanding and sad forbearance. Follow your path. There are many paths up Mt. Fuji. You need not follow theirs. Seek out your own and climb into the sunlight.

W.

Bob R, just curious, what do you think about it? You're in AA, right?

I have a temporary sponsor, there are not many woman. I haven't found anyone.

What do you guys study literature-wise?

Where in the first 164 pages of the Big Book does it say to get a sponsor?


Enjoy!

She says take it slow, no need to rush anything. I think I am stressing so much I am missing other important lessons.

One thing that became obvious to me is that I couldn't keep myself sober...I have tried many times and failed. I see myself as agnostic too. But I also see a bunch of people going to meetings that are sober, so if they are anything like me something is keeping them sober besides themselves. So right now my higher power is the group. I know that a group of people are more powerful than just me so it works for right now.

If people in AA are trying to get you to believe that their God is right for you, I can see why you feel as you do. That type of thinking usually just leads to arguing and defensiveness in my experience. I have not had that happen to me around here. Sad to hear your choices of meetings are slim.

That said, the whole AA program is about finding a relationship with some form of higher power. I hear you on the science.. I have my degree in Chemistry. Are you willing to believe in something you feel there's no proof of?

Not in any way trying to talk you into it or debate. But the Big Bang theory has plenty of limitations and assumptions. I have not heard of one principle in science that rules out the possibility of a higher power. A good amount of science certainly requires a level of faith.

Anyway step 2 turns out to be the step that has helped me stay sober. I have only completed through 3. And it is not the 1st part of step 2 that has helped me it is the bit about being restored to sanity. I came to believe that it was insane after all the nightmares drinking brought into my life I still kept picking it back up. Every time I thought a drink sounded good, one of my tools is to remind myself for me to drink is insanity.

Works for me. If you do not think you can believe maybe check out the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey. And the secular forums here have great information too.

In the meetings that I go to we talk about higher power and some people do use "God" as theirs but they mostly focus on higher power. For today my higher power are my kids Who know where the road will take me. As long as its far away from a drink I still go. (9 days today) You never know.
Good luck
Angie

That is good advice, God ain't going anywhere.

Sharing "at" people in a meeting is inappropriate. If someone in AA is sharing "at" you in an AA meeting and it is making you uncomfortable there are two ways to address that. The best way is to square off with them after the meeting. They will offer excuses, just stay on message that you are uncomfortable with it. The second is to get up and leave the room for coffee or whatever when they begin sharing "at" you.

Hi Arbigyle

Just on faith and science - there are plenty of us scientists who are Christians. You might want to have a look at Home | BioLogos

But faith is deeply personal, and I can understand the reluctance to pressure.

As a devout agnostic, I very much struggled with that as well. At my first meeting I read the twelve steps and looked at step 2 and thought to myself "I wanted this so bad, there's no way I can do this." My sobriety month was February so it seemed every meeting was fixated on the whole God thing. I couldn't get sober by myself and saw it worked for others so I kept coming back - just in case it might work for me.

As most of us new in recovery, I was vehemently opposed to religion - therefore any reasonable notion of God. I likely interpreted "God" as the Christian God I learned to hate.

Here are some of the traditions - "long form."
It doesn't say what form God should take and certainly doesn't mention Jesus.

Celebrate Recovery likely came about due to religious affiliation (don't know this for sure).
It doesn't say "we believed," it says "came to believe." And it doesn't say that power is God. It just says a power greater than ourselves. For me, that power was a group of other alcoholics getting together to work out how to live their lives without alcohol.

The twelfth step says - as a result of these steps - the spiritual awakening is a result, not a condition. I've found, also, that those who are truly honest with themselves have a spiritual awakening that is uniquely personal, hard to describe, and rarely resembles anything they've previously learned or expected.

To be honest, of the many hundreds and hundreds of AA'ers I've met, I know only two that regularly proclaim religion as a key part of their recovery who have more than 6 months of sobriety (one guy is at six months, the other is at 20+ years).

AA is a program to for living.
Christianity is a program to be prepared for after we're dead.

It's a really good program and one we never finish. I have no doubt that as you build time in sobriety you'll find your voice and learning how this very simple program works from what book says, and not the people say you'll discover "AA's Promises" more quickly than many who struggle through it for years.

"Keep coming back"

Thanks Angie.

You are doing great, I had a using drink last night. I am so happy to wake up to something positive.

When I am sad I watch soulpancake.com. Just a little help for me to restore my faith in humanity.

Arbigyle
Thanks for sharing that site. I have never seen it before its great!
I think for me I realized that I was putting wayyy to much thought into what that higher power is and I think maybe that is what you are doing to. I am totally not convinced yet I have not given into it so please understand I get what you are feeling. But there is something in me that has changed a bit, hopeful..I am still young (well in my eyes) I am 39 and I have 3 kids and I have to be honest I pretty much have been raising them with no religion becuase of my struggle. But would I WANT them to have a belief YES absoloutley. But how can I teach them if I dont know. And if its good for them well why not me.
I am "trying" to start my life over like my kids who resist change. Is soooooooo hard for us alcoholics to change WE HATE IT!!! lol There isnt a meeting that someone has not said that.
Keep your heart open dont turn anything away. Every lesson is a gift.
I hope you have a great day
Angie

You have a wise sponsor .

I was at a 2nd Step table yesterday morning.
There was 6 of us at the table and total sober time among us was ~126 yrs sobriety.
We were all working on Step 2 and I think we're making headway.

I always thought I was better than/worse than I really was and always thought I should be in a different place than where I was.... and didn't think I needed a H.P.. I was wrong on all counts.
Coming to believe is a process for me today and I'm pretty well OK with where I'm at in the process.

I am being restored to sanity.

All the best.

Bob R