Religious References in AA
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Religious References in AA
Perhaps you could clarify what "religious references" you are referring to.....
I find spiritual references but no "religious" references.
All the best.
Bob R
Perhaps you could clarify what "religious references" you are referring to.....
I find spiritual references but no "religious" references.
All the best.
Bob R
Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 339
The God question, always a tough one for some people including myself. I can only say this. I know a few atheists in AA and they have been sober for a long long time. They do not pray at the end or talk about God. They do use the fellowship and support of the program. The work on regrets, fears, anger, resentments, and all kinds of stuff that keeps them emotionally fit. Just to be able to talk to other alcoholics in the same boat keeps me sober. I wish you luck
Sober Alcoholic
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 3,539
Well I'm going to take a stab at this one. I hope I do not offend folks in AA or those who are part of organized religious groups. That’s not my intention.
When I first went to AA I was an agnostic (leaning heavily toward atheist). I had argued with Jesus freaks just for the fun of it (till I really shook the faith of one of them). The God stuff in AA meetings did not sit well with me. I had multiple university degrees and for me science had quite adequate explanations for things.
By way of a different perspective, someone in AA left me slightly more open to the possibility of a power greater than myself. For the first time I actually studied some of the worlds religions with a (semi)open mind while I at the same time started to work the AA program. You might say I was just slightly open to the idea of the possibility of a God, but I did not expect to find one.
Then, one morning, quite unexpectedly I had what I can only describe as a “spiritual experience”. It was not exactly a 'burning bush' type, but it was close. So now, for me at least, it is not a matter of faith, but of knowledge. For me there is something odd about 'faith'. It implies a decision to believe. I cannot find it in me to “decide to believe”. I thank God I didn’t have to.
Just my experience.
When I first went to AA I was an agnostic (leaning heavily toward atheist). I had argued with Jesus freaks just for the fun of it (till I really shook the faith of one of them). The God stuff in AA meetings did not sit well with me. I had multiple university degrees and for me science had quite adequate explanations for things.
By way of a different perspective, someone in AA left me slightly more open to the possibility of a power greater than myself. For the first time I actually studied some of the worlds religions with a (semi)open mind while I at the same time started to work the AA program. You might say I was just slightly open to the idea of the possibility of a God, but I did not expect to find one.
Then, one morning, quite unexpectedly I had what I can only describe as a “spiritual experience”. It was not exactly a 'burning bush' type, but it was close. So now, for me at least, it is not a matter of faith, but of knowledge. For me there is something odd about 'faith'. It implies a decision to believe. I cannot find it in me to “decide to believe”. I thank God I didn’t have to.
Just my experience.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,997
Hi GuiltyParty,
I use parts of all recovery methods. I'm a Buddhist and a panentheist but respect the beliefs of others. I just go to meetings and show respect to those who may have a different way of believing. It's their meeting and their principles. So far no one has tried to convert me.
I like working the steps because I see them as a spiritual journey. I use Buddhist 12 step literature and have also found one by a Rabbi that I really like. I define God as I don't know who or what brought about all this reality but I do know for a fact it wasn't me. That seems to be enough for me.
I also want to say that I enjoy reading the posts and literature on the other methods like AVRT and Smart etc. The more I keep an open mind and stay respectful of others the better off I seem to be.
If someone wants to say their prayer at any meeting, I have no problem reciting it with them to show my support. I just think...what would Buddha do? He would probably tell me it's my intent that matters.
Welcome to SR GuiltyParty!
I use parts of all recovery methods. I'm a Buddhist and a panentheist but respect the beliefs of others. I just go to meetings and show respect to those who may have a different way of believing. It's their meeting and their principles. So far no one has tried to convert me.
I like working the steps because I see them as a spiritual journey. I use Buddhist 12 step literature and have also found one by a Rabbi that I really like. I define God as I don't know who or what brought about all this reality but I do know for a fact it wasn't me. That seems to be enough for me.
I also want to say that I enjoy reading the posts and literature on the other methods like AVRT and Smart etc. The more I keep an open mind and stay respectful of others the better off I seem to be.
If someone wants to say their prayer at any meeting, I have no problem reciting it with them to show my support. I just think...what would Buddha do? He would probably tell me it's my intent that matters.
Welcome to SR GuiltyParty!
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by amberbris 
It's the strangest thing. I got really tired of how religious AA was. I just decided to head in another direction.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NE Wisconsin USA
Posts: 6,223
I am agnostic. My higher power lies in what I see working/going on between people helping people. I don't pray at meetings, but I like joining hands at the end if the Lord's Prayer is said, even that I just listen.
I'm not being rosy here, but the powers I believe in are many, the power of love, of caring, of sharing, of helping, of peace, of fellowship, even the power working the 12th step. I've come to know that when other members talk of a personal god they are actually talking about the powers I have listed.
This didn't happen over night. I came in to the program many years ago as a born-again, speaking in tongues, hand waving Baptist.
After doing my 4th and 5th, and going up through the rest of the steps, did I finally truly accept what I believed, what worked for me. It's been a journey, spiritual maturity.
I'm not being rosy here, but the powers I believe in are many, the power of love, of caring, of sharing, of helping, of peace, of fellowship, even the power working the 12th step. I've come to know that when other members talk of a personal god they are actually talking about the powers I have listed.
This didn't happen over night. I came in to the program many years ago as a born-again, speaking in tongues, hand waving Baptist.
After doing my 4th and 5th, and going up through the rest of the steps, did I finally truly accept what I believed, what worked for me. It's been a journey, spiritual maturity.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,781
Here's the chapter TomSteve was referring to in the Big Book..
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf
Linked with the permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Step 3 it clearly says God as you understand him.. I'm in Boulder, some people's HP is the grass, trees, the great outdoors etc.. Please don't get wrapped up in the religion deal.. What ever your HP might be its between you and your HP.. The program has helped millions of people.. Wishing you the best! So glad you went!!
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf
Linked with the permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Step 3 it clearly says God as you understand him.. I'm in Boulder, some people's HP is the grass, trees, the great outdoors etc.. Please don't get wrapped up in the religion deal.. What ever your HP might be its between you and your HP.. The program has helped millions of people.. Wishing you the best! So glad you went!!
Last edited by Dee74; 04-16-2013 at 04:00 PM. Reason: copyright link
Peace, Love, Sobriety
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wilmington, DE
Posts: 1,549
Originally Posted by HitRockBottom70
This chapter did not make me want to be a part of AA. I still find it kinda offensive as an agnostic. Basically saying sure its ok not to believe in God, when we are done, you will. It actually had the opposite effect when I first quit and it was suggested I read it..
I have grown very spiritual though, i do pray but I still dont really know who or what it is im praying to. I just know that it works for me.
But like you said there are other options if it doesnt work for some.
My motto is as long as you find a way to stay sober and work with it, who cares how you're doing it? Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: My city of ruins...
Posts: 593
Great discussion and thanks for the topic!
I take what I need and leave the rest. It has worked for me for 8 months and I use AA principles and practices as I need them in order to stay sober. I also grabbed a few pieces of AVRT and they reside in my toolbox as well.
Keep doing what you are doing if it is keeping you sober AND helping you to learn how to LIVE sober - two very different things.
All the best!!!
I take what I need and leave the rest. It has worked for me for 8 months and I use AA principles and practices as I need them in order to stay sober. I also grabbed a few pieces of AVRT and they reside in my toolbox as well.
Keep doing what you are doing if it is keeping you sober AND helping you to learn how to LIVE sober - two very different things.
All the best!!!
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,954
to SR GP and new life alcohol free
Originally Posted by guiltyparty
but how do others deal with a faith based system, when you have no fait?
As for my faithless
, the G*d/HP parts of AA's 12-step program are irreverent as far as I am concerned. Instead I focus on what has meaning to me. Like the helping that many good AA members provide. I may lack faith but I have experience. I have come to understand what works and what dose not and have the experience to know the difference. Before recovery I had no clue on what to do to stop my alco/drug condition. Places like AA, here at SR, AVRT, Smart Recovery, CBT and many many more opportunities to learn a healthy practice of living sans alco/drugs keep me sober/clean content-fully.Maybe have a look at what other atheist/agnostocs in AA have do/done. My greatest ignorance was trying to fix myself with no knowledge to do so.
Originally Posted by Zencat
Jimmy B, forth original AA member who argued to include "as you understand Him" into the 12-steps was an atheist that went to his grave with 3 decades of sobriety in AA. He wrote:
”For the new agnostic or atheist just coming in, I will try to give very briefly my milestones in recovery.
1. The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn.
2. The A.A. Fellowship became my Higher Power for the first two years.
3. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were found in all of us.
4. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady.”
- J.B., San Diego, California.
1. The first power I found greater than myself was John Barleycorn.
2. The A.A. Fellowship became my Higher Power for the first two years.
3. Gradually, I came to believe that God and Good were synonymous and were found in all of us.
4. And I found that by meditating and trying to tune in on my better self for guidance and answers, I became more comfortable and steady.”
- J.B., San Diego, California.
AA Agnostic London South & Home Counties
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by guiltyparty
Today was my first AA meeting after nearly 20 years of literal self destruction.
I have no complaints about the group, the meeting, or my treatment there.
However, I must still ask the question... I am an Atheist, and it's not that I want to change how their members or organization conduct business, and find success, but how do others deal with a faith based system, when you have no faith?
I have no complaints about the group, the meeting, or my treatment there.
However, I must still ask the question... I am an Atheist, and it's not that I want to change how their members or organization conduct business, and find success, but how do others deal with a faith based system, when you have no faith?
Good to hear your 20 years of self-destruction is ending. Awesome choice! You know, its not about faith, and its not about others either, to make a difference in your life with AA. Its really about ourselves, and there is no requirement not to be ourselves in AA, even though we're at the same time being offered, challenged, and encouraged to change ourselves to a greater purpose in our lives. It can get crazy, with so many individuals being themselves and yet wanting to work with others all at the same time.
I started as agnostic in AA, and my program remains agnostic ie my HP is of my own understanding. I suppose one way of expressing my HP is to say it's reflective and representative of my quality of life. Simplistically, my HP is a better life for me, and for others too, then what once we had while drinking and drugging.
This kind of understanding has proven itself to me time and time again, without fail, my HP always finds the winning hand in the deck of cards played out to me. I'm always amazed how I continue to land on my feet, how I can walk away from trouble, and how my HP works with me to achieve success in shared abundance.
It can be sometimes perplexing to some folks that know I'm Christian and yet my AA program still remains agnostic. Nonetheless, I'm a good example of having an HP of one's own understanding.
So be confident, guiltyparty. You too can have your own understanding, if you so choose to do so. When you look back on your life experiences as you progress, both when now sober and when before drunk, you'll be completely over-joyed at just how simple it really is to posses your own awesome understanding and still be true to yourself, no matter who you choose to be, or not be, in your sober life.
Welcome to SR.
And the walls.....
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 81
Generally I found people that had a problem with AA and religion were looking for something, anything, that they could use to take the focus away from the real problems that needed to be addressed.
Sorry if that is out of line, just my experience
Sorry if that is out of line, just my experience
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,191
Just want to say thank you to everyone for great comments and keeping this thread very supportive and not argumentative. This is a topic that can turn ugly sometimes and I think its great that we are all sharing open-mindedly.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 144
Originally Posted by Zencat
:Places like AA, here at SR, AVRT, Smart Recovery, CBT and many many more opportunities to learn a healthy practice of living sans alco/drugs keep me sober/clean content-fully.
We as alcoholics really need as many tools as we can stuff into our sobriety tool box and ANY way to stay clean is a good thing.
The more you know, the more you KNOW!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Midwest
Posts: 11,481
For what it may be worth, I have just become aware that a Unitarian Universalist church near me has on its calendar meetings of "Buddha and the 12 Steps". I emailed for more info and was told that the meetings incorporate some meditation as well as the familiar 12 steps and that they welcome overeaters, codependents, alcoholics, alanon folk, addicts, and in short anyone who wants to participate in this type of program.
I have not attended yet but do plan to, as I figure that broadening the influences I'm exposing myself to can only help me learn and grow in the program. Wanted to mention this in case it would be of use to anyone here.
And yes, the respectful sharing here is wonderful!
I have not attended yet but do plan to, as I figure that broadening the influences I'm exposing myself to can only help me learn and grow in the program. Wanted to mention this in case it would be of use to anyone here.
And yes, the respectful sharing here is wonderful!
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
Originally Posted by honeypig
For what it may be worth, I have just become aware that a Unitarian Universalist church near me has on its calendar meetings of "Buddha and the 12 Steps". I emailed for more info and was told that the meetings incorporate some meditation as well as the familiar 12 steps and that they welcome overeaters, codependents, alcoholics, alanon folk, addicts, and in short anyone who wants to participate in this type of program.
I have not attended yet but do plan to, as I figure that broadening the influences I'm exposing myself to can only help me learn and grow in the program. Wanted to mention this in case it would be of use to anyone here.
And yes, the respectful sharing here is wonderful!
I have not attended yet but do plan to, as I figure that broadening the influences I'm exposing myself to can only help me learn and grow in the program. Wanted to mention this in case it would be of use to anyone here.
And yes, the respectful sharing here is wonderful!
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