MeSoSober

Exactly. They may want to want it, but they don't, as Burroughs says, "authentically want" it.

Although reasonable people may disagree, of course.

MeSoSober

If you don't think it's a discussion worth having, you're certainly welcome not to participate.

Nattythreads

.:biglaugh

soberlicious

Well, for me it was less about disagreeing and more about exploring this idea within the perspective of several different paradigms. It was interesting to explore it without judgement.

I think that phrases like "authentically want it" adds some measure of mystery to ending an addiction that is not only unnecessary, but potentially really ineffective if you think about it.

I hope you are finding what will bring you relief and freedom. xo

MeSoSober

Well, that's Burroughs' point, and I tend to agree, that it's neither unnecessary nor ineffective, but CRITICAL (I think it has been for me), but I totally respect your opinion and appreciate your thoughts.

I think the whole question is intriguing and I love these kinds of discussions that provoke real thought. Here's to sobriety however it happens!

Fallow

[QUOTE=MeSoSober;3855349]That leads to the question of how many people who make the DECISION to quit without actually WANTING to are ultimately successful in achieving sobriety. Certainly you can make an effort to quit based on a decision that is not rooted in actual desire, but I question how successful such efforts ultimately are. Perhaps many -- I don't know how much difference decision vs. desire makes.

QUOTE]

I don't know how I could make an actual decision to quit without actually wanting to quit. If my wife says 'Im getting a divorce unless you quit drinking' and I tell her I'm going to stop but I don't want it my guess is I personally would end up drunk or high again at some point.

But have I really made a decision to quit for good? The back door is always open to use again because I really did not (want to) make the decision.

That being said, action is the key. Ive heard a few times in AA this question. If 3 birds are sitting on a branch and one makes a decision to fly away, how many are still sitting on the branch?

All 3. A decision in and of itself means nothing unless followed by action.

I question how succsessful such efforts are too. Given the dismal recovery rates in treatment, AA, and elsewhere I would venture to say not very succsessful. But then again I am not judge of the desires of others.

I just need 100% success for me

sepvac

MeSoSober,

I agree with many here who have written that the job of a sponsor is not to make decisions for you, or to ensure your curfew, or to replicate their own recover experience within you. I ran into plenty of these types in early AA, and none of them did much for me except to serve as an exemplar of what NOT to do when helping others find recovery.

A sponsor is also not an effective Higher Power or Greater Being because they are human and have finite power and capacity fir un conditional relationships.

They are, IMHO, persons who have knowledge of where the steps are described in the Big Book (or what ever stripe of mutual-help group you favor), where the directions for taking the steps are, and the timing for taking the steps. It is not necessarily a long-tem relationship, but often is.

From an AA perspective, alcoholism is a brain-based disease. You cannot think yourself well. No amount of mental exertion or willpower is effective as a means of attaining permanent recovery from alcoholism. A relationship with Power greater than self is the primary defense against the cycle of spree and remorse that typifies alcoholics. This is why many alcoholics have total control over other parts of their lives, but not control over alcohol, even in the face of predictable negative consequences.

A sponsor is one who has experienced a spiritual awakening, and serves as a guide to help you use the steps to experience your own, unique path to recovery.

For the majority of AA members that line of defense means God. God as you understand Him. If you are an atheist or agnostic, and AA is your last-chance saloon, then you have to develop an authentic and powerful relationship with a source of power that will make sobriety work for you.

Cheers,

Bill

Fallow

Also, I get the whole action vs. inaction discussion.

To me it's the chicken or the egg. It really doesn't matter to me. I found that I could not think my way into sobriety. And I tried for a number of years. That's my 2 pennies spent...

tomsteve

for me there was more than wanting. there was action. i can sit in the garage all day but it aint gonna make me a car.

soberlicious

So then, in effect, this paradigm has worked for you to remain permanently abstinent, yes? Or has it worked to allow you to continue drinking, since you don't "authentically want it enough" yet?

Me too! It's what I thrive on, but I will add this caveat...I can afford discussions like this because I am permanently abstinent. I have the luxury of batting things around without the reality of dying from drinking, since I don't drink. Sometimes discussions like this divert...they keep the addicted individual chasing their tail, all the while remaining addicted. Do you have the luxury of that time? What's your plan for booze and you?

MeSoSober

That's a poor analogy. Alcoholics are trying to STOP doing something, not create or DO anything.

MeSoSober

No, actually, I posted earlier that I think I have finally reached a point where I DO authentically want it.

I don't understand this line of thinking at all. Serious thought and discussion on these issues is reserved for those superior beings already permanently abstinent? Pray, tell, what am I, a lowly recent drinker still finding her way, allowed to do? Do I shut my brain down until I join your lofty ranks?

I'll think about and discuss what I please, and preserve my sobriety to the best of my ability as I do.

sugarbear1

Being sober is a series of actions. It is a lot of work, both physically and mentally. It's about learning how to live without needing to drink, or possibly wanting to drink then acting on it.

What is the first thing people do when they come to a stop sign? Make a decision, then they must act on it.

It takes greater effort to stay stopped than it does to continue to drink.

I'm hoping you soon come to your own decision and act on it, no matter how you obtain that goal. You are worth sobriety!

soberlicious

I'll take your sarcasm here to mean that I hit a nerve. It wasn't intentional. I was pointing out that you might want to examine whether your analysis of different programs or methods is bringing you closer to a decision to quit or in fact delaying a decision to quit. That's all. I can't answer that for you, I was just providing food for thought since this is a discussion for forum and you asked opinions.
Good plan, and yeah, it is a free country so that's totally allowed. Maybe as you read responses something may hit you that you hadn't previously thought about. It would be nice to have all responses appeal to your sensibilities and emotions, but unfortunately that isn't always how it works out. Please know that my intentions in my post to you were sincere.
xo

MeSoSober

Okay, only since there seems to be some confusion, I have made the decision to quit. That's done, thank God.

Thanks, sugarbear (I hear you on the fact that it takes greater effort to stay stopped. Stopping was never my problem--staying always has been!) and soberlicious, I appreciate your contributions! I really am looking forward to continuing to read and share for a long time. Like I said, having a ready-made entire group of recovering people to turn to for support and advice I think will be a big help to me.

Threshold

To me, recovery isn't just what I DON'T do...drink, drug, binge, get into misguided sexual relationships...etc. It's about me creating a life where I'm not driven to do those things out of compulsion or desperation. A life that isn't constantly punctuated by "I need a drink".

I really like Augustus Burroughs writing, and I agree that if my aim is to not drink, then sitting and not drinking are the answer. But ultimately I want to do more than not drink,drug, etc etc. I want to live free of the desire and compulsion. I want to be able to meet my obligations, overcome my fears, and be actively pursuing what I want more of.

My recovery program helps me not drink, but it also helps me do all those other things. I white knuckled it for a while in the beginning but I knew (and was encouraged by people here) that sobriety and recovery could be much more than that.

drinking and drugging were a huge problem but an even more insidious problem for me was the fact that I refused to face life, my feelings and my fears.

I dont' want to spend the rest of my life "not drinking", I want it to be so much more. Drinking/drugging simply had to be taken off the table...THEN I needed to get busy living.

I understand what Soberlicious was asking because I know that in early recovery I spent lots of time and energy theorizing, pondering, analyzing, and critiquing programs, people, perspectives and anything else handy. It looked and felt like I was putting my entire self into my recovery, but then I saw that I was really just refusing to commit to recovery until I felt that I had the PERFECT plan cobbled together. I wanted to do this thing like no bodies business! I was going to be the smoothest, smartest, most graceful recovering addict ever!

I know for a fact that we can have sponsors, mentors, friends and recovery pals that assist us in our recovery without belonging to any particular program etc.

trikyriky

I think after reading this thread that you all have not helped this member but instead have probably drove them to drink. At least 3 of you agreeing and disagreeing , who are they to believe? A person asked for help and it turned into a something unhelpful.

MeSoSober

Awwwww, that's very sweet of you triky but it's okay. I want people to feel free to express themselves. It did get off track but I certainly contributed to that myself. Agreement, disagreement, it's all good. But thank you for being so nice. :-)

Threshold, when Burroughs says "To stop drinking, all you have to do is sit," I am sure he doesn't mean "don't build a life for yourself beyond just taking away drinking." In fact I'm certain of it. A couple of pages prior he writes, "To be successful in not drinking, a person needs to occupy the space in life drinking once filled with something more rewarding than the comfort and escape of alcohol. This is the thing you have to find."

Those words tell me that he agrees with you wholeheartedly--to substitute a great, full, life -- whatever that means for you -- in place of booze. I think that Augusten Burroughs would be the LAST person to say, "Give up drinking and just suck up what's left of your boring life!"

I so wish the whole chapter of the book were available somewhere online, but I don't think it is.

Oh, and I haven't had any urges today.

Dee74

I'm sorry if you feel that way Riky.

What I see here is the OP engaging in a discussion with other members -it seems that discussions helped the OP get somewhere to me?

I'd suggest you don't drink tho - not reading this thread, or putting certain posters on ignore, is a better option.

D

TheEnd

Ok I get that. I just hope your want and need find each other before something devastating happens like in my case and there really is no other alternative. Good Luck!