People, places, and things that make me want to drink!
Fellow Traveler and Seeker
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 2,408
Originally Posted by Gforce23 
It may be true that I give that thought power, but the emotional reaction I have to some of those thoughts is immediate, and visceral. Have you ever heard the phrase "Neuron's that fire together wire together?" It's about brain plasticity and how it actually shapes our responses to things over time. So, disassociating the feeling from the thought is not something I believe we are able to do instantaneously-- like you said Soberlicious, it takes practice to re-wire those neuron's. Being conscious of the thought>reaction process in the first place is at least a start.
I will keep practicing! I'm going to look at it like a gym work out for the brain. Though I must say, I find getting physically stronger a whole lot more enjoyable!
Thanks guys n' gals.
What you relate about practicing it is very true. It's like practicing yoga or meditation...it takes, you know...practice.
Great thread.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SoCal, California
Posts: 990
Thoughts are constantly coming and going, such is the nature of the mind...all different thoughts 24/7, many we aren't even conscious of.
It's like practicing yoga or meditation...
Wow - that yoga teacher was AWESOME. Thirty years later and things are still ringing true.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Yes somewhat CBT-ish in nature, although in CBT the aim is to reframe the thinking so as to change the behavior, right? To me, what many posters here are describing is more parallel to the Buddhist practice of observing your thoughts/feelings and letting them pass. There is no need to change them per se; in that philosophy there is no ridding oneself of desire, but to "sit with" or even "lean into" discomfort and allowing it to naturally pass. And, yes...all of this takes time and practice and the mind isn't always easy to tame. Don't think I don't give the finger in traffic. Some of my pathways are burned pretty deep LOL
You look to me like you're doing just fine. Quite well in fact.
Shoot, maybe if I'd done that, I'd be dealing with this better already.
SR Fan
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 7,910
There were a lot of things/situations that felt overwhelming to me at first. I couldn't even think about them without wanting a drink. I just decided that when I started to feel overwhelmed, to immediately back off (let it go) and focus on the present.
Sometimes I would imagine floating on a lazy river, just laying back and trusting the river to bring me to my destination. Better yet, trusting myself and trusting the process - one tiny step at a time.
It really does get better - promise!:ghug3
Sometimes I would imagine floating on a lazy river, just laying back and trusting the river to bring me to my destination. Better yet, trusting myself and trusting the process - one tiny step at a time.
It really does get better - promise!:ghug3
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 443
Good morning everyone.
I've been reading over all the posts again this morning, and boy, do in terms of practicing "observing but not identifying" with your thoughts and or feelings, boy, am I ever being put to the test this morning. I'll get to that later.
Soberlicious, what your describing sounds a lot like the focus of Vipassana meditation. You simply observe your thoughts, feelings, and discomfort and pain, i.e "suffering"--which there is a lot of because during a retreat you are sitting there silently for 10 days! I haven't done it yet, but I would like to at some point.
Personally, in terms of our thoughts and or feelings affect on us, this is what I think: I think I can often be objective about my thoughts, but when certain thoughts are created because of a certain ingrained pattern in my life, they evoke an immediate emotional response. I personally do not think I can "help" how I feel. I feel the way I feel. However, observing the feeling, feeling the feeling, and letting it go, as one poster said, "like a river," is what I can do. I don't think I should try and "feel differently" than how I feel. I don't think I should try and think "positive thoughts." I think all feelings are real and valid. I do believe I have control over how I act on those feelings. (However after this mornings stupid fight with my husband, where he acts like a school yard taunting bully, I have to wonder. I have intense fantasies of attacking him with a fork, and it's about all I can do not to act on that impulse under those circumstances.)
The worse suffering, in my opinion, comes from trying to avoid pain. Even violence is a way to avoid suffering from negative emotions.
The feelings of anger that rise up in me when my husband tries to get my goat in an argument is practically physical. I can feel it rising up and sticking like a giant fire ball of anger in my gut. Now that I've had a moment to reflect on this mornings fiasco--I say "fiasco" because I didn't exactly "not act" on those feelings, and though I did NOT attack him with a fork, I can see that my reactions are a way of actually trying to avoid feeling the intense discomfort of that anger, and whenever I've been able to escape in these moments and it's just me and my burning anger, I usually end up crying and feeling really sad. Who knew that was part of it? But if I can allow that whole process to happen instead of acting out violently by either yelling or throwing an some sort of handy projectile at my husbands head, I WILL end up feeling better in the long run than if I try to run from the feeling by acting on it.
However, in order for that to work at this point in my life, I have to physically remove myself from the situation. My husband has a knack for saying something smart right when I'm the most vulnerable to losing it. Like he'll start mocking me and telling me I have anger management issues. And then when I react like a person with anger management issues, he'll act like an angel and ask me how I feel about "teaching our child that kind of language..." So, you can see where the attacking him with a fork imagery comes in to play... BTW, the language I refer to is SANS the F word. I told my husband to "Blow Me."
In any case. It isn't just the desire to drink where this dynamic comes into play. What's really difficult, is that these situations that come up with my husband or with my mother, are so painful, they are often triggers for me to drink! So, now not only do I have to deal with my anger and emotional reactions in my relationship dynamic with them, but I am now no longer relying on my familiar crutch to deal with my feelings. Ugh.
Talk about being put to the test.
I don't know if any of that made a lick of sense, but that's my report.
Cheers.
I've been reading over all the posts again this morning, and boy, do in terms of practicing "observing but not identifying" with your thoughts and or feelings, boy, am I ever being put to the test this morning. I'll get to that later.
Soberlicious, what your describing sounds a lot like the focus of Vipassana meditation. You simply observe your thoughts, feelings, and discomfort and pain, i.e "suffering"--which there is a lot of because during a retreat you are sitting there silently for 10 days! I haven't done it yet, but I would like to at some point.
Personally, in terms of our thoughts and or feelings affect on us, this is what I think: I think I can often be objective about my thoughts, but when certain thoughts are created because of a certain ingrained pattern in my life, they evoke an immediate emotional response. I personally do not think I can "help" how I feel. I feel the way I feel. However, observing the feeling, feeling the feeling, and letting it go, as one poster said, "like a river," is what I can do. I don't think I should try and "feel differently" than how I feel. I don't think I should try and think "positive thoughts." I think all feelings are real and valid. I do believe I have control over how I act on those feelings. (However after this mornings stupid fight with my husband, where he acts like a school yard taunting bully, I have to wonder. I have intense fantasies of attacking him with a fork, and it's about all I can do not to act on that impulse under those circumstances.)
The worse suffering, in my opinion, comes from trying to avoid pain. Even violence is a way to avoid suffering from negative emotions.
The feelings of anger that rise up in me when my husband tries to get my goat in an argument is practically physical. I can feel it rising up and sticking like a giant fire ball of anger in my gut. Now that I've had a moment to reflect on this mornings fiasco--I say "fiasco" because I didn't exactly "not act" on those feelings, and though I did NOT attack him with a fork, I can see that my reactions are a way of actually trying to avoid feeling the intense discomfort of that anger, and whenever I've been able to escape in these moments and it's just me and my burning anger, I usually end up crying and feeling really sad. Who knew that was part of it? But if I can allow that whole process to happen instead of acting out violently by either yelling or throwing an some sort of handy projectile at my husbands head, I WILL end up feeling better in the long run than if I try to run from the feeling by acting on it.
However, in order for that to work at this point in my life, I have to physically remove myself from the situation. My husband has a knack for saying something smart right when I'm the most vulnerable to losing it. Like he'll start mocking me and telling me I have anger management issues. And then when I react like a person with anger management issues, he'll act like an angel and ask me how I feel about "teaching our child that kind of language..." So, you can see where the attacking him with a fork imagery comes in to play... BTW, the language I refer to is SANS the F word. I told my husband to "Blow Me."
In any case. It isn't just the desire to drink where this dynamic comes into play. What's really difficult, is that these situations that come up with my husband or with my mother, are so painful, they are often triggers for me to drink! So, now not only do I have to deal with my anger and emotional reactions in my relationship dynamic with them, but I am now no longer relying on my familiar crutch to deal with my feelings. Ugh.
Talk about being put to the test.
I don't know if any of that made a lick of sense, but that's my report.
Cheers.
Sobriety is Traditional
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Orcas Island, Washington
Posts: 9,064
Here is my (his) perspective--you and my wife are twins.
I have learned since quitting drinking that things like a lecture on anger management during a hissy fit are counter-productive. I have learned to just grin and bear it when my wife has tantrums, because there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop them--anything just makes it worse.
The causes of irrational female behavior may include hormones and post-traumatic stress disorder. Whatever, according to the Gottmanns (next "Orcas Crossroads" lecture on relationships March 10), 69% of all relationship conflicts are never eliminated. We have to learn to live with them.
If your husband wants to see you stay sober, he is going to have to find a strategy for handling difficult situations that does not just make things worse. One simple thing to realize is that mornings are a fragile time.
Has he tried Al-Anon? Maybe introduce him to the whiner's thread (I could use some male companionship there...)
I have learned since quitting drinking that things like a lecture on anger management during a hissy fit are counter-productive. I have learned to just grin and bear it when my wife has tantrums, because there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop them--anything just makes it worse.
The causes of irrational female behavior may include hormones and post-traumatic stress disorder. Whatever, according to the Gottmanns (next "Orcas Crossroads" lecture on relationships March 10), 69% of all relationship conflicts are never eliminated. We have to learn to live with them.
If your husband wants to see you stay sober, he is going to have to find a strategy for handling difficult situations that does not just make things worse. One simple thing to realize is that mornings are a fragile time.
Has he tried Al-Anon? Maybe introduce him to the whiner's thread (I could use some male companionship there...)
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by Coldfusion
Here is my (his) perspective--you and my wife are twins.
I have learned since quitting drinking that things like a lecture on anger management during a hissy fit are counter-productive. I have learned to just grin and bear it when my wife has tantrums, because there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop them--anything just makes it worse.
The causes of irrational female behavior may include hormones and post-traumatic stress disorder. Whatever, according to the Gottmanns (next "Orcas Crossroads" lecture on relationships March 10), 69% of all relationship conflicts are never eliminated. We have to learn to live with them.
If your husband wants to see you stay sober, he is going to have to find a strategy for handling difficult situations that does not just make things worse. One simple thing to realize is that mornings are a fragile time.
Has he tried Al-Anon? Maybe introduce him to the whiner's thread (I could use some male companionship there...)
I have learned since quitting drinking that things like a lecture on anger management during a hissy fit are counter-productive. I have learned to just grin and bear it when my wife has tantrums, because there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop them--anything just makes it worse.
The causes of irrational female behavior may include hormones and post-traumatic stress disorder. Whatever, according to the Gottmanns (next "Orcas Crossroads" lecture on relationships March 10), 69% of all relationship conflicts are never eliminated. We have to learn to live with them.
If your husband wants to see you stay sober, he is going to have to find a strategy for handling difficult situations that does not just make things worse. One simple thing to realize is that mornings are a fragile time.
Has he tried Al-Anon? Maybe introduce him to the whiner's thread (I could use some male companionship there...)
I don't want to come off like I'm "blaming" my husband for my hissy fits, but usually, they start out with me trying to have a rational discussion about something, and then my husband gets defensive for various reasons, and starts resorting to contempt, (eye rolling) and goat getting behavior--mocking, saying "whatever," clucking like a chicken because that's what he thinks I sound like etc... This happens any time he is "not in the mood" for hearing what I am trying to say...which is often, um, NEVER. So, while my reactions over his behavior are not his fault, this our DYNAMIC, and it's not all my fault either.
I've had a number of relationships with other men where this dynamic just did not occur. We might have had other types of issues or problems, but I've only had this type of relationship where my partner actively tries to get my goat with about one other person.
I had a 2 year relationship with a guy who never got to chuffed about anything. We hardly EVER fought. I can still be a fiery person, but that particular guy just never lit the match.
Just my two cents on that one. I get a little on the irked side when I think some one is blaming this whole problem of temper on "just being a woman..." It's treading on dangerous ground, because while it very well MIGHT be that time of the month, it doesn't mean my feelings and my needs and my perspective aren't valid.
And hey, women express feelings differently than men--as in WE EXPRESS THEM. Which seems to be scary for a lot of guy's throwing off balance and since it isn't how they react to things, they like to call us "Crazy." An old girl friend of mine who was a hilarious firey red head from the South used to joke in her mellifluous Southern drawl, while making circles with her index finger next to her ear, that men just loved to call women "CRRAAAAZY, "
But just FYI Coldfusion, my husband is and was a "goat getter," long before he met me. I just happen to be an eeeeaaasy target. It's a DYNAMIC.
However, it is a DYNAMIC that I could change all by myself if I refuse to play, but right now--crap! NOT a good time! I'm working on it but yeah, bad timing to be poking my weak spots.
Cheers
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 443
Oh yeah,
And the reason I know that my husband was a goat getter long before he met me, is that he's TOLD me a number of times that his old friends nick-named him "Inflammatory Man."
So you see...
He is my greatest teacher (the I would never give him the satisfaction of saying this to his face) because he is constantly testing me in the area in which I am most weak. I've been working on "non-reaction" for a while, and sometimes the rock rolls down the hill one foot for every two I push it up. Sometimes, I fail miserably at not reacting. Hell, I may not make it to enlightenment this month, but someday I hope to be able to "leave the temple." In other words, it's a process.
Cheers.
And the reason I know that my husband was a goat getter long before he met me, is that he's TOLD me a number of times that his old friends nick-named him "Inflammatory Man."
So you see...
He is my greatest teacher (the I would never give him the satisfaction of saying this to his face) because he is constantly testing me in the area in which I am most weak. I've been working on "non-reaction" for a while, and sometimes the rock rolls down the hill one foot for every two I push it up. Sometimes, I fail miserably at not reacting. Hell, I may not make it to enlightenment this month, but someday I hope to be able to "leave the temple." In other words, it's a process.
Cheers.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
nick-named him "Inflammatory Man."
I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down Gforce. I understand exactly how that feels as that was much the dynamic my ex and I had, fork fantasies and all.
Here's the thing. Yes, it's hard...it's all hard, but none of it and I mean none of it needs to be tied into drinking. Be aware that this is all ammo for the part of you that wants to drink. Seperate it out. Do not allow any of what life throws at you be used as an excuse. I'm going to be blunt here and you don't have to agree, but I do not believe in "triggers". All of life, the good and the bad, can be viewed as a trigger.
If you decide, there will be no circumstance under which a drink is appropriate. If you decide that, that is...
and you are right. The worst thing for me is to "fight" fear or anger or pain, or to run from it, or otherwise avoid it. The idea of "inviting it in for tea" appeals to me because I'm a big believer in "keeping your friends close, and your enemies closer." We have much to learn from these feelings, but we have to get close enough to them to find the lesson. That's the scary part.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 443
Your thinking "hemorrhoids" because he's capable of being a real pain in the ass--I'm sure that's what you meant
In any case, no I will not use it as an excuse, but stress of any kind brings on the urge...actually even feeling good and wanting to let loose does too, so really, it could be anything. I don't think your being harsh, just tellin' it like it is.
I wish I had the strength of your convictions, Soberlicious--I know that what you'd probably tell me is stop wishing, and just have it.--Of course I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm just guessing! Maybe that's true. I'm not yet ready to make the leap from "one day at a time" to "never again." I'm just...yeah. Trying to find my own way with it.
Maybe I'm suffering unnecessarily because I'm doing it "my way." Probably not the wisest, because "doin' it my way" has usually been...let's just say, a much tougher road to hoe than it ever needed to be. If there is an easy way, a hard way, and a really f(*^$ng brutal way, for some reason I'll often choose option number 3.
Who knows why, maybe someday I'll figure it out. I've been fighting with life since I was little, so I guess I just don't know any differently.
Cheers,
Gillian
In any case, no I will not use it as an excuse, but stress of any kind brings on the urge...actually even feeling good and wanting to let loose does too, so really, it could be anything. I don't think your being harsh, just tellin' it like it is.
I wish I had the strength of your convictions, Soberlicious--I know that what you'd probably tell me is stop wishing, and just have it.--Of course I'm putting words in your mouth, but I'm just guessing! Maybe that's true. I'm not yet ready to make the leap from "one day at a time" to "never again." I'm just...yeah. Trying to find my own way with it.
Maybe I'm suffering unnecessarily because I'm doing it "my way." Probably not the wisest, because "doin' it my way" has usually been...let's just say, a much tougher road to hoe than it ever needed to be. If there is an easy way, a hard way, and a really f(*^$ng brutal way, for some reason I'll often choose option number 3.
Who knows why, maybe someday I'll figure it out. I've been fighting with life since I was little, so I guess I just don't know any differently.
Cheers,
Gillian
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
I wish I had the strength of your convictions, Soberlicious--....
Maybe I'm suffering unnecessarily because I'm doing it "my way."
Maybe I'm suffering unnecessarily because I'm doing it "my way."
My last trial with alcohol resulted in near death, so I decided I've gotten sufficient results on that experiment. I guess we each know when we know, right?
xo
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by soberlicious
Do you know how I came by my strong convinctions? From doing it "my way", from figuring out what worked for me. That way of doing things has probably caused me unnecessary suffering for sure, but trial and error is the only way anything is ever really and truly and deeply internalized for me. It's how I do just about everything in my life, and there were/are times I reject something solely because someone told me it was "the way to do it". Is that wrong? Is it right? Don't know, don't care. It's how I have been since childhood, and while not always the easiest road, it's been my road.
My last trial with alcohol resulted in near death, so I decided I've gotten sufficient results on that experiment. I guess we each know when we know, right?
xo
My last trial with alcohol resulted in near death, so I decided I've gotten sufficient results on that experiment. I guess we each know when we know, right?
xo
But thanks for that, in writing.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
