Empathy vs. Tough love
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 443
Empathy vs. Tough love
I'm just throwing this out here considering my recent go-round with someone here about their "tough love" approach to someone struggling with quitting--(I personally found it shaming.) I stumbled on this article called, "The 'Just Do It' Trap." on the Scientific American website. In it, they are referring to Dr.(?) Laura and Dr. Phil's style of take no prisoners "tough love" approach:
Here is an excerpt:
Blaming the Victim
McGraw and Schlessinger are right to emphasize personal responsibility and discourage blaming others for problems. Yet they often take individual accountability to an extreme, implying that people are to blame for all their difficulties when, in fact, factors such as an individual’s genetic makeup, personal history and current circumstances may contribute significantly to psychological problems. Emphasizing personal control above all else can discourage people from identifying the external issues or situations that might be contributing to their problems and that might need to be addressed.
Link to the full article:The "Just Do It!" Trap: Why Radio "Docs" Help Few: Scientific American
Thoughts?
Here is an excerpt:
Blaming the Victim
McGraw and Schlessinger are right to emphasize personal responsibility and discourage blaming others for problems. Yet they often take individual accountability to an extreme, implying that people are to blame for all their difficulties when, in fact, factors such as an individual’s genetic makeup, personal history and current circumstances may contribute significantly to psychological problems. Emphasizing personal control above all else can discourage people from identifying the external issues or situations that might be contributing to their problems and that might need to be addressed.
Link to the full article:The "Just Do It!" Trap: Why Radio "Docs" Help Few: Scientific American
Thoughts?
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,438
Different approaches work for different people.
I've seen posts here that would have not helped me - but they helped the person they were directed to - they got results.
We're not the same.
If we all responded to the same approach, I could just be a computer programme
D
I've seen posts here that would have not helped me - but they helped the person they were directed to - they got results.
We're not the same.
If we all responded to the same approach, I could just be a computer programme
D
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: SE and then South some more
Posts: 2,648
I think it can be a little bit of both, you need to have someone put their foot down, but at the same time, getting empathy from those that have been there that can help you move forward can be helpful.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Well, I think there is a difference between "emphasizing personal control" and "emphasizing personal responsibility". Those are completely different things.
I also don't think that asking someone point blank what they plan to do about their drinking problem is tough love or shaming. Shaming is name-calling, belittling, or otherwise mocking someone vulnerable. Advising someone to take action, and presenting options for action, tells them that you validate their capability, that you believe in them... that you have hope for them, even if they do not right now.
I played the victim and my friends and family responded with endless amounts of empathy and love. That kept me drunk for a long time.
I also don't think that asking someone point blank what they plan to do about their drinking problem is tough love or shaming. Shaming is name-calling, belittling, or otherwise mocking someone vulnerable. Advising someone to take action, and presenting options for action, tells them that you validate their capability, that you believe in them... that you have hope for them, even if they do not right now.
I played the victim and my friends and family responded with endless amounts of empathy and love. That kept me drunk for a long time.
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
You can empathize with someone's problem, and still keep the responsibility for dealing with said problem on that person's shoulders.
Realizing you have a problem, deciding what to do about it, and actually doing it are all difficult things. Alcoholism/addiction is feeding you lies the whole time.
Empathy doesn't mean feeding someone else's self-pity or sense of helplessness. I love Soberlicious's messages to alcoholic/addicts that we love. Yes, it's hard, yes, it's painful, I have faith that you can do it and I will support your efforts but I'm not taking responsibility for your actions/inactions.
Realizing you have a problem, deciding what to do about it, and actually doing it are all difficult things. Alcoholism/addiction is feeding you lies the whole time.
Empathy doesn't mean feeding someone else's self-pity or sense of helplessness. I love Soberlicious's messages to alcoholic/addicts that we love. Yes, it's hard, yes, it's painful, I have faith that you can do it and I will support your efforts but I'm not taking responsibility for your actions/inactions.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 443
Well, I'd like to respond to some of your comments--however I've been sick as a dog on a hot day with the flu, and I can barely formulate a coherent thought at the moment.
Also, the person whose comment that spurred me to start this thread is here-- so I feel a bit hard pressed to respond in a way that addressed my original thought without risking this becoming personal. So, if anyone can think of a way to avert that whilst' still allowing me to respond, let me know.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Also, the person whose comment that spurred me to start this thread is here-- so I feel a bit hard pressed to respond in a way that addressed my original thought without risking this becoming personal. So, if anyone can think of a way to avert that whilst' still allowing me to respond, let me know.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
gforce,
this can be such a minefield, and partly that's because of the term "tough love".
if there's no love involved, it's likely it's just tough, no?
and when we don't know others, have not established any kind of relationship over time by reading and responding, then chances are slim there's any kind of love involved.
what i'm trying to say in my verbose round-about way is that after you/we've developed some kind of a relationship, built up some trust over time, then tough love can and often is full of empathy. empathy in seeing where the other is stuck, from a certain distance.
but if that's not the scenario, and i find myself wanting to be real tough with someone, chances are the issue is in me; they've touched some kind of nerve. in that case, i better just look this way.
something i'm still learning. s-l--o--w----l-----y.
this can be such a minefield, and partly that's because of the term "tough love".
if there's no love involved, it's likely it's just tough, no?
and when we don't know others, have not established any kind of relationship over time by reading and responding, then chances are slim there's any kind of love involved.
what i'm trying to say in my verbose round-about way is that after you/we've developed some kind of a relationship, built up some trust over time, then tough love can and often is full of empathy. empathy in seeing where the other is stuck, from a certain distance.
but if that's not the scenario, and i find myself wanting to be real tough with someone, chances are the issue is in me; they've touched some kind of nerve. in that case, i better just look this way.
something i'm still learning. s-l--o--w----l-----y.
Keeping it simple!
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Surrey, BC
Posts: 3,282
Originally Posted by soberlicious 
I played the victim and my friends and family responded with endless amounts of empathy and love. That kept me drunk for a long time.
In this day and age everyone wants instant gratification, blame others for their problems, take no accountability and think they are entitled just because.
Sometimes we need to hear it point blank. We can only play the victim role for so long.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 443
Originally Posted by fini
gforce,
this can be such a minefield,
this can be such a minefield,
However, I hope everyone will read the FULL article at some point. I would like everyone to know, that I in no way confuse empathy with "enabling" and indulging in someones pity parade.
However, I think this might less less "dramatic" if we talked about our opinions of the actual article. (?)
Or how about we just think about it on our own and not comment.... especially if it's going to start sh*t storm of bickering...
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Sometimes we are a little bit blunt with each other. I know the comment you are referring to.
Here's the thing--as alcoholics, we know how easy it is to rationalize our actions--to smooth them over, to tell ourselves it isn't so bad. BECAUSE WE ALL DID IT, OURSELVES.
Part of why AA and other self-help groups (including SR) are so effective is that we get it, we really do. So what might be harsh or judgmental coming from someone who has no clue what the alcoholic is going through is quite a bit different when it's coming from someone who has been there, done that. It's part of the reason that people share at AA meetings about "what it was like"--so the newcomer can see that we know whereof we speak.
We also know, from experience, how difficult it can be to break through that wall of denial. So sometimes comments are offered in an attempt to cut through the layers of denial in which we alcoholics can wrap ourselves. It doesn't mean we are trying to shame anyone. It means we care, we get it, but here is what is really going on.
Sometimes that will hurt someone's feelings. That's unfortunate, because I have met very few people on this forum--no more than a handful in the three years or so I have posted here--who intended to say something for the purpose of being hurtful. I presume that even if a comment is inartfully phrased, the person intends to be helpful.
Conversely, I think it is our responsibility to speak up for ourselves if something someone has said to us has hurt us. We don't have ESP and don't always realize it. I have exchanged private messages with people to clear up any apparent misunderstandings. And that's always what they have been--misunderstandings.
Alcoholism is a very tricky disease, but nobody understands it like another alcoholic. I'd rather accidentally hurt someone's feelings than withhold my honest beliefs out of fear of offending someone. I try my best not to be offensive, but no doubt I sometimes am, without meaning to be.
I think the best policy for participating in online forums is to cut slack unto others as you would have them cut slack unto you.
Here's the thing--as alcoholics, we know how easy it is to rationalize our actions--to smooth them over, to tell ourselves it isn't so bad. BECAUSE WE ALL DID IT, OURSELVES.
Part of why AA and other self-help groups (including SR) are so effective is that we get it, we really do. So what might be harsh or judgmental coming from someone who has no clue what the alcoholic is going through is quite a bit different when it's coming from someone who has been there, done that. It's part of the reason that people share at AA meetings about "what it was like"--so the newcomer can see that we know whereof we speak.
We also know, from experience, how difficult it can be to break through that wall of denial. So sometimes comments are offered in an attempt to cut through the layers of denial in which we alcoholics can wrap ourselves. It doesn't mean we are trying to shame anyone. It means we care, we get it, but here is what is really going on.
Sometimes that will hurt someone's feelings. That's unfortunate, because I have met very few people on this forum--no more than a handful in the three years or so I have posted here--who intended to say something for the purpose of being hurtful. I presume that even if a comment is inartfully phrased, the person intends to be helpful.
Conversely, I think it is our responsibility to speak up for ourselves if something someone has said to us has hurt us. We don't have ESP and don't always realize it. I have exchanged private messages with people to clear up any apparent misunderstandings. And that's always what they have been--misunderstandings.
Alcoholism is a very tricky disease, but nobody understands it like another alcoholic. I'd rather accidentally hurt someone's feelings than withhold my honest beliefs out of fear of offending someone. I try my best not to be offensive, but no doubt I sometimes am, without meaning to be.
I think the best policy for participating in online forums is to cut slack unto others as you would have them cut slack unto you.
Keeping it simple!
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Surrey, BC
Posts: 3,282
From the article:
"In addition, the more directive the therapists were, the more the clients drank a year after the therapy."
In my opinion this is blaming the therapist and not the client. Going to see someone is very hard. I know it was for me. My counsellor tells me things I don't like to hear sometimes or asks me to do things I would prefer not to, but I know there is a method to his madness so to speak. I could very well turn it around and say he has no empathy and use that as an excuse to drink.
Alot of times people see a counsellor and don't like them because they don't tell them what they want to hear.
Also lets not forget that these two therapist are on the air to draw an audience. People already know what they are like so I don't know why some of them call them or go on their show. If there was no drama people just wouldn't watch or listen to their shows.
"In addition, the more directive the therapists were, the more the clients drank a year after the therapy."
In my opinion this is blaming the therapist and not the client. Going to see someone is very hard. I know it was for me. My counsellor tells me things I don't like to hear sometimes or asks me to do things I would prefer not to, but I know there is a method to his madness so to speak. I could very well turn it around and say he has no empathy and use that as an excuse to drink.
Alot of times people see a counsellor and don't like them because they don't tell them what they want to hear.
Also lets not forget that these two therapist are on the air to draw an audience. People already know what they are like so I don't know why some of them call them or go on their show. If there was no drama people just wouldn't watch or listen to their shows.
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,438
If anyone can ever tell me how to delete a post, let me know.
You can ask an admin for a post to be deleted but the rules are pretty strict on that nowadays.
D
Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 929
Originally Posted by Gforce23
Well, I'd like to respond to some of your comments--however I've been sick as a dog on a hot day with the flu, and I can barely formulate a coherent thought at the moment.
Also, the person whose comment that spurred me to start this thread is here-- so I feel a bit hard pressed to respond in a way that addressed my original thought without risking this becoming personal. So, if anyone can think of a way to avert that whilst' still allowing me to respond, let me know.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Also, the person whose comment that spurred me to start this thread is here-- so I feel a bit hard pressed to respond in a way that addressed my original thought without risking this becoming personal. So, if anyone can think of a way to avert that whilst' still allowing me to respond, let me know.
Cheers.
Cheers.
" Do you want your son to have a drunk for a mom?"
I'm a dad. I was a pathetically drunk Dad for a while and no one ever asked me that question. I wonder if that question would have planted a seed in my mind had I been asked?
Why beat around the bush about the actual question and then hope for some way to discuss this with the community without my knowing?
I'll let everyone know that I am painfully aware that this addiction kills tens of thousands of people every year.
I post with that in mind.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-please-3.html
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by Xune
I'm a dad. I was a pathetically drunk Dad for a while and no one ever asked me that question. I wonder if that question would have planted a seed in my mind had I been asked?
I'm glad this particular question was asked of me,
"Do we need to remove the children from your home and your care?"
Trust me, it wasn't asked in a loving voice and by the same token it wasn't intended to "hurt my feelings" either because guess what? By that point, it wasn't about my feelings anymore, it was about the safety of my children.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Did you see the movie "Pulp Fiction"?
Vincent and Jules has a car that is covered in blood and guts... They have to clean it and get rid of it before they get into a world of trouble. A guy named Mr. Fox is called to solve their problem. They have very little time to get this done.... Mr. Fox gives them a bunch of instructions, in a very direct and firm manner.
Vincent complains... you know "You could at least say, Please...", or something like that.
Mr Fox says.... "Please, Pretty Please, with sugar on it... Clean the f**king car"
Vincent and Jules has a car that is covered in blood and guts... They have to clean it and get rid of it before they get into a world of trouble. A guy named Mr. Fox is called to solve their problem. They have very little time to get this done.... Mr. Fox gives them a bunch of instructions, in a very direct and firm manner.
Vincent complains... you know "You could at least say, Please...", or something like that.
Mr Fox says.... "Please, Pretty Please, with sugar on it... Clean the f**king car"
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
