bbthumper

The best description of spirituality I have seen has been in the book Spirituality of Imperfection. Even the authors of the book admit that spirituality cannot be defined, but they describe it beautifully. The nice thing is they start the book describing spirituality so if you are interested in the description they give it is right there in the beginning of the book.

hcantral

So after reading up a bit more, I'm fairly certain I don't agree with AA's view on agnostics and atheists. "It's main object is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself which will solve your problem." But... Why? It's almost like deflecting. "I am powerless to solve my own problems, someone else has to do it." I absolutely disagree with that sentiment. We are absolutely responsible for the choices that led us to where we are today. It might be easier to turn everything over to a higher power, but I definitely am more comfortable being in control of my own recovery and change, even if it is harder and more work.

freshstart57

HCantral, I thought you made that clear from the outset. I see the whole shebang the way you do too. Carry on.

RobbyRobot

Yeah, almost, but not quite. In my experience, it's not deflecting at all. It's full ownership, in a spiritual way.

Yeah, I absolutely agree, I am responsible. Even so, I'm still able to be spiritually aware of my choices and responsibilities. Being responsible does not preclude my spirituality.

It's not easier to turn anything over to a Higher Power, lol. If anything, it is more difficult, but has greater rewards for the effort, so it works well, is my experience.

As for control, my being spiritual give's me additional control, not less. You don't seem to grasp the benefits of living a spiritual life, so of course, you don't see the worth, only problems and such things apparently.

I can appreciate your point of view, no problem. I would say though, that I don't experience the limits and problems of lack of responsibilites you seem to have experienced when you considered for yourself the aspects of being spiritual.

There is more to it then you have realised, it seems to me, speaking for myself.

RobbyRobot

"The whole shebang"

I laughed out loud reading that comment. Sounds like something my father would say, lol.

Mark75

Me too, brother, me too... Where did you hear that sentiment?

ru12

I drank to much. I did that. I stopped drinking. I did that.

That is how it worked for me.

hypochondriac

It was a few months ago I read it but I found the chapter on 'we agnostics' a wee bit patronising. There was a lot of other stuff in the Big Book which I could relate to though (Pg 60/61 is me!), plus someone in a meeting said I could use a smurf as my higher power, so that made me panic a bit less about this concept. If you really can't relate to any of the AA stuff, just use some other methods. I used some CBT stuff which has been absolutely invaluable to me (PM me if ya want a link) and was just so much more immediately useful than anything AA could offer.

wpainterw

Yes, as has been said on this thread, it is in the eyes of a puppy. It is in the sunset at the end of a winter's day. It is in the leaves drifting down from the old cherry tree at the corner of the house. It is in the wind and in the rain which you can hear falling on the roof in the midnight hours. It is in the memories of one's youth. All the rejoicing which went with the holidays. It is in the hope that we may be forgiven for all we have done and the courage to stay on the path.

W.

Threshold

I've posted on this before, because my idea of HP is not anything like a being at all.

I believe spirituality to be a function of the brain, and brain scans done while people pray, meditate, contemplate and participate in religious/spiritual behaviors, show that there are parts of the brain that are tied to this.

I have no particular idea why humans evolved with a bent for spirituality, or why participating in such activity and developing that brain function seem to help many lead a more balanced life. But it seems to be the case. Most humans, it would appear, seem to have hard wiring towards actions, and behaviors that we refer to as spiritual. There seems to be a certain draw to it in many many people.

Others appear to have little interest or benefit from such. Like any other talent etc, it seems to manifest to different degrees in different people.

I've always been drawn to the spiritual and have found it to be an asset in my life, and a talent worth developing. If evolution so gifted me with it, and I find it to benefit me, then I am not too proud, skeptical or intellectual to make use of it. I will use whatever talents that my brain has a propensity for to improve my experience of life.

Due to the nature of my beliefs many people define me as an atheist because I don't believe there is a god. I place my faith in the Universe, the Dynamic Process of which I am a function. I find it hard to argue with the existence and reality of the Universe. It calls the shots. I can do nothing that is not possible through natural means.

Developing my spiritual propensity is as natural as developing any of my other talents.

I have experienced the benefits of maintaining and open mind and accepting that more will be revealed during the process of recovery. I don't say this in a "wink wink, nudge nudge" way...meaning that in time I'll "come round to their way of thinking", but in the sense that as I grow in recovery I come to new perspectives and understandings of my relationship and function within the Universe.

freshstart57

HCantral, just to offer a slight spin to the topic, I appreciate spirituality and beauty (that was lovely poetry, wpainterw), there's God in the trees and I'm weak in the knees, and Jesus is Lord. I have a faith and I believe. I also believe that I was given an immortal soul and I exist in the universe as it exists within me. I am no atheist or agnostic.

But anyway, back to your question, HCantral. My outlook on sobriety said that I needed a self-powered secular approach, just as you do, and for the same reasons. This post explains my experience, and since it seems to have a chance of being a reasonable response to your post, I will offer it to you.

Mark75

I do like these threads. It forces me to look at my own experience and to better understand my own spirituality.

Yea... I did that too... All of it. I drank then I didn't drink. I did that.

I did not want to quit drinking. I was afraid.

He did that.

tomsteve

AA doesnt say someone will help with your problems. it is something.

in any respect, Aa may not be for you and i hope you find something that works.