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Why do a lot of recovery programs require a higher power?

Old 10-22-2012, 07:43 AM
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Please keep focused on the OP's question.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:19 AM
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Just finished reading the first 50 pages of Rational Recovery (AVRT). The authors story in the intro seemed to eerily coincide with my experiences and questions so far in reaching sobriety. I think I may have to buy one of those Bee costumes used in the old Blind Melon video where the little bee girl found others like her . Buzz Buzz

No seriously, it's what I needed. A non-religious/spiritual approach just makes more sense to me personally. I thought about it late last night and I unknowingly used this technique to completely quit smoking (9 years so far!). Thanks for shedding some light on other options
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:30 AM
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So glad for you dredg! As an atheist I can't approach sobriety in a way that requires a hp..It is and always will be an inside job..
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by dredg
I thought about it late last night and I unknowingly used this technique to completely quit smoking (9 years so far!).
There are more than a few of us here, dredg, who quit drinking, and then found that we had been using AVRT without knowing it. The reason for this is that AVRT is the collected lore of the self recovered, and the same tool (a type of mindfulness, really) works a treat for tobacco addiction too.

I am so glad to hear that it is ringing your bell. It's an exciting feeling, isn't it, when you know that you have taken your last drink. Congratulations.
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:30 PM
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There's a lot of talk and perhaps confusion about the "Higher Power" which is so important to many groups. Some say that this is 'God" (indeed, the Big Book lapses into this at times, "Your higher power, which is God..."). Others say it can be the "group". Some say that it can be "anything" and others then seek to make fun of this by suggesting ridiculous examples. My own experience led me to the conviction that, at least as far as I was concerned, it was very unlikely that I could maintain sobriety (1) by my own efforts, or even (2) by one to one counseling. This was empirically proven for me by trying and failing to maintain sobriety by each of these methods for about forty years. Then I got into an AA Agnostics group and I haven't had a drink in 24 years. So, again, for me the group seemed to work. They didn't believe in God or at least chose to remain skeptical. But they helped each other and they helped me. So I arrived at my own definition of my higher power. It is simply the realization that if I try to achieve or maintain sobriety by my own efforts or by one to one counseling, my chances of success are relatively slim. This is about as scientific as I can get. It took me forty years of laboratory work to prove this. It seems to be valid for me. Maybe it's valid for others. They have their own laboratories and can conduct their own experiments. One other thing seems to be apparent. These "experiments" are usually expensive and risk laden. People sometimes die. They lose jobs, families. possessions, reputation. It's a very serious business indeed!

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Old 10-22-2012, 06:25 PM
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I am with right with you in your post, wpainterw, as you recounted and shared your experience, how the 'experiment in your lab' succeeded through recourse to a group and your understanding of your Higher Power. That is good stuff.

Where you lose me is when you say that 'it is apparent' that experiments in achieving sobriety 'through our own efforts or by one on one counseling', are expensive and risk laden, with death and loss of family, job and reputation the result.

This is not true, you have made the assumptions of the blind men and the elephant, believing that their own direct experience describes the totality. It is a much different elephant than the one you have touched. While it was apparent to each of the blind men that the elephant was a rope, a snake, a wall, a spear, we understand that they were limited in their own experience and limited in their ability to comprehend anything outside of it. It was not until the blind men collaborated and listened to each of them share their own private experiences that they learned what an elephant was.

It will be a much different discussion we will have when this misinformation stops.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:39 PM
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tomsteve--

Read again. There is no bashing going on here--in fact this seems to be a very thoughtful thread on this issue.

I also think that you seem to be setting up a straw man when you criticise those who think that they can quit "on their own power." I doubt anyone here would ever claim they could do it on their on power--or why would they be here? Anyone who thought they could quit on their own power would not be seeking a recovery program or support online--they would not need either.

But for many of us, it seems that it is not a "god" that recovers those in AA but rather the faith (and hard work) of those in the program. I remember that a sponsor told me to use a doorknob as my higher power because it was the belief itself rather than the object of that belief that made the difference.

Many would disagree---but I think he was right.

Ultimately it does not matter. If it works for you, why question it? And if it does not, why not seek out something else? Common sense would indicate that there is no one perfect path that will fit each and every individual anymore than there is one perfect religion that fits each and every believer or one perfect medicine that will heal the flu in every flu sufferer. Recovery is not a widget, so I for one am glad that AA, NA, SmartRecovery, AVRT, therapy, etc are all there so that alcoholics and addicts stand a fighting chance of finding the light bulb that fits their socket.

It is not bashing to say that there are many roads to recovery. It is not bashing to say that any particular method recovery did not work for a particular person. Just because X did not work for one person does not mean it will not work for another person.

Anti-depressants are a good analog. No one pill works for everyone. The one that helps one patient, will do nothing for another. The one that makes one person stable, unstablizes another patient with intolerable side effects. And there is no way to predict with anti-depressant will work for any individual. It is trial and error--just like the task of finding one's way to recovery. And it is not bashing welbutrin to say that it was ineffective for a particular person. There are plenty of others that it works for.

I think we need to have the same understanding of recovery.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:57 PM
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You got it wrong freshstart. Read the post again. Painter says 4 times that it was the case for him. Quote ”at least as far as I was concerned’ and later “This was empirically proven for me” and still again “So, again, for me” and yet again he says ”It seems to be valid for me”. He does NOT generalize to everyone. How on earth could you read this into what was written? Sorry rhetorical question.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:09 PM
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Anecdotally - drunks are a bunch of well spoken, highly gifted writers. Hell the debate going on here puts the televised presidential debates to shame.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:25 PM
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I liked the first part, personal experience, and you referred to that part accurately. We agree, Awuh, there are no issues with the esh part.

But then there is this:How on earth could you read this into what was written?

Where you lose me is when you say that 'it is apparent' that experiments in achieving sobriety 'through our own efforts or by one on one counseling', are usually expensive and risk laden, with death and loss of family, job and reputation the result.
That would be the how right there. My point is that denying something you cannot perceive ends up becoming an argument for your limitations.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:25 PM
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Well I don't think there is any doubt that a higher power is required to get good solid AA recovery... It is the foundation of AA. I don't think that tomsteve is denying that.

I think that one can come to AA without an understanding of a higher power, heck, one can be atheist, agnostic, nontheist, whatever... But with an open mind (tomsteve) people who want AA recovery can often develop some understanding of a higher power, if they are honest, willing and open minded.

But absolutely, a higher power is required for AA/12 step recovery...it is just not a prerequisite to be a member of AA.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by awuh1 View Post
Why do people drink? They drink because they like the effect! The effect is that it makes them feel better. It often comes with a host of problems, often very VERY serious problems. Yet they continue to drink. Why? Because it makes them FEEL better NOW. It makes THEM feel better. Somehow FEELING GOOD NOW becomes more important than anything. How self-centered is that? It’s infantile when you honestly look at it. Waa Waa Waa I want my bottle now. Yes, that was me too, as much as I hate to admit it and as much as I told myself that this was not true.

Freedom from the boundaries of self. It’s the key for many. To adopt a principled life. To value the greater good, that is, what is best for all rather than what is good for me alone. And NOT to just value it, but behave in such a way that displays this principle. It’s a radical change in thinking for the typical alcoholic and it's often been shown to work.
The idea that I cannot do anything I want simply because I want to was foreign to me when I came into recovery. Self will run riot (good name for my Autobiography). I found the concept of a Higher Power helpful if for no other reason than I finally felt there was something I had to answer to for my actions.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
My point is that denying something you cannot perceive ends up becoming an argument for your limitations.
Painter has been in AA for years and has seen plenty of others fail via the use of these methods alone. He is not speaking from a vacuum.

As for "denying something you cannot perceive becoming an argument for your limitations" ….. with that statement we come full circle to the question asked initially in this thread.
It seems to me that you are becomming more open minded as we speak.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:18 PM
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There's no denying there's some great debaters and brilliant rhetoric in the thread, from both sides.

We should be here to help others tho...

I know as well as anyone that sometimes the glow of discussion can get a bit heady - I hope we keep sight of our focus.

All this 'he said... no...he said' stuff seems pretty circular and self indulgent to me.

Anna asked once and I'll ask again.

Lets remember the OP who started this thread, the question they posed, and the newcomers who read this thread and are looking for help.

thanks
D
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:46 AM
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I wouldn't let the HP thing get you down or keep you from being sober. I fought that one too. It was my main excuse for not going to AA, even though I'd never been. When I finally drug my sorry butt in, I pretty much dove into the program. I don't concentrate on the HP thing so much, although a lot of people do. I'm almost 10 months sober and I'm glad I jumped in to AA. I am almost done with the steps. My sponsor told me to not spend too much time overthinking the HP. And she's right. I hope you get sober and stay sober.
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Old 10-24-2012, 07:45 AM
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Can I say something now-in my own defense perhaps? That is before this thread is closed because of all the rather unexpected and vigorous debate? I am very much acquainted with the elephant story. See the post by Freshstart 57. The story is one of my favorites. And all my life I have been quite aware that I was only holding on to an ear and that there were others who may well be able to describe the elephant more accurately than I. I never laid claim to the assertion that one must have a higher power to recover. I only said that it seemed to be necessary for me to do so. When I said that others might choose to "experiment" for themselves, I merely meant that the options are open to anyone to do what they consider helpful, to grasp whatever part of the elephant they considered appropriate. But I did add something which I very much doubt anyone on this SR website would quarrel with. That is that the road to recovery from alcoholism is fraught with risk, Not everyone makes it. This thing can kill you, kill others, disrupt families, jobs, take everything you have and hold dear. You can hold on to any part of the elephant you choose. But you can also be trampled underfoot. This elephant is not really your friend.

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Old 10-24-2012, 08:41 AM
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A brief P.S. to my reply to Freshstart57.
Although I have replaced my alcohol dependency with a dependency on dogs, an "illness" which is apparently chronic and irreversible (see Caroline Knapp's similar experience recounted in her book, "Pack of Two"), I hope I have not spread "misinformation" by dogmatically failing to recognize that, as I have said elsewhere, there appear to be a number of paths up Mt. Fuji. Nonetheless, again speaking from my own limited experience, I have found some of those paths to be expensive (even though in earlier times psychiatric fees, like college tuition, were more modest) and, again in my limited experience, certainly risk laden. Indeed, at times I have thought of that region in England's Lake District where tourists are invited to walk down what is called the "Striding Edge", a knife edge ridge where there is a sharp drop off on either side. Once in Peru I found myself at such a place, a narrow path above a town called "Pisac". The cliff at the side dropped down to a stream about 500 feet below. I asked the guide what happened when tourists fell down there and he answered that if they were foreigners "we leave them there". Alcoholism is a dangerous, foreign land. Horatio, in Shakespeare's "Hamlet" was wise to caution the hero not to follow his father's ghost too closely for


“What if it tempt you toward the flood, my lord,
Or to the dreadful summit of the cliff
That beetles o’er his base into the sea,
And there assume some other horrible form,
Which might deprive your sovereignty of reason
And draw you into madness? Think of it:
The very place puts toys of desperation,
Without more motive, into every brain
That looks so many fathoms to the sea
And hears it roar beneath.”

So I didn't intend to be "dogmatic". And I also hope that this debate hasn't cast me as the elephant. If you're grasping at me, I hope that at least you're not "pulling my leg"!

W.
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Old 10-24-2012, 09:31 AM
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Has the OP returned? Funny how a thread is started and then a huge argument ensues, all without the OP.

Honestly, to the OP, if you are held back by the HP thing, then just ignore that part. A lot of people really have no idea what they are talking about when speaking about the steps, because they've never worked thru them with a sponsor! It's like judging the state of Alabama when you've never stepped inside.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:12 AM
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I was in AA for years and it helped me. But I never "worked through the steps with a sponsor." I had a temporary sponsor for a few weeks and asked another fellow to take over. He said he would provided that I acted as sponsor for someone else. I was never able to get someone else to have me sponsor them so I made do by myself and with the help of an agnostics group. So perhaps this may show that I'm not dogmatic (well- dogs, that's something else), that I'm flexible and pragmatic, not "spreading misinformation" and that there are several ways of skinning a cat (or cooking one's goose!). The important thing, at least for me, is that I haven't had a drink for 24 years. Some folks might say that I've been on a dry drunk. That's O.K. with me. Whatever it is I've survived and been able to deal with lots of stuff which, when drinking, would have done me in for sure. I hope to have many many more years on my dry drunk! Also I've never been to Alabama.

W.
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Old 10-24-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Lost3000 View Post
Has the OP returned? Funny how a thread is started and then a huge argument ensues, all without the OP.

Honestly, to the OP, if you are held back by the HP thing, then just ignore that part. A lot of people really have no idea what they are talking about when speaking about the steps, because they've never worked thru them with a sponsor! It's like judging the state of Alabama when you've never stepped inside.
I'm here. I started the thread not to argue my opinions. I started the thread to find answers to my questions. They were answered within the first few posts. I do however, think it's funny watching the "who's right" arguments. I really don't care about this extra "fluff". I'm a man of solutions not constant
debate on beliefs.
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