nobshere

Excellent dredg! Knowledge is power..unfortunately I can't help you with that woman spirit trapped in a mans body..lol..just joking..keep the faith..the faith in yourself.

Fandy

Please give us a review on the book, thanks. (Can i get the nook version)? Thanks!

freshstart57

The AVRT Crash Course is free at the Rational Recovery website. That is a good place to start.

DrunkTx

Hey dredg....I am going to take a stab at answering your original question....why a HP? Because so long as you continue to believe you are in control, the more you place burdens on yourself that are untenable (fact by the way, you can't control everything around you). When you fail, where are you going to reach next? Yup, you got it, the bottle. Of course the logical question: so voodooing me into a HP is going to take the pressure off? Obviously not. For those of us who believe in god, the notion is obviously not a stretch. But, I would argue that for those who don't believe, the construct is still valid.

Consider a guy who is really head over heal for a woman. They have been great friends for five years, and truth be told he wants or needs the relationship to go to the next level. By the way, assume this person has a real alcohol problem which his girl friend (currently plutonic) has been instrumental in keeping him sober. He courages up and asks her to take the relationship to a romantic level. She says no, and cuts contact with him. What do you think he does? He could very well reach for the sauce to ease his pain. But what pain? The pain of embarrassment, the pain of a broken heart, the pain of inadequacy or the pain of low self worth. Honestly - he failed and was humiliated, shouldn't he drown his pain?

So long as he thinks he is in full control, and as such her rejection was a complete rejection of him, he will want to hide from the truth. But what if I told you this girl whom he asked out was repeatedly raped as a child. What if she was denigrated so badly as a young girl that she has zero trust in men, and the very thought of a romantic relationship threw her in a such a tailspin of terror, that she packed up and left town. Of course the horror is enough to start another thread. But the moral here is that the guy had no control whatsoever of the outcome and what transpired. In fact, he could have been the richest best looking most interesting guy in the world, and the outcome would have been the same. The conclusion? The world is much bigger than any one individual. And there is no one individual who controls everything that happens to them. As such, what we need to learn is how to release ourselves of the burden of 100% control. Some call it a higher power because we believe that he/she/it is in drivers seat. Others call it karma or nature. Either way, it is not you, so forgive yourself.

freshstart57

That's very true, Tx, we can't control everything around us, but we are only talking about whether we keep on drinking when we know it's bad for us to do it. Accepting that we just won't drink anymore is a good start to accepting other things we can't change.

RobC420

Most state of the art medical hospitals include meditation gardens and prayer rooms. A surgeon's expertise is surgery not spirituality. A world class Cancer center just opened next to my house and they have one of the nicest meditation gardens I've ever seen. This is not hocus pocus. The effects of meditaton and prayer are and have been known for centuries, hence the popularity of these gardens and prayer rooms in modern hospitals.

I've had all the same questions and frustrations as you dredg and somehow I have become a believer in a HP. I smile as I write this because I very clearly remember being very science oriented and refusing this idea of a HP. Eventually my HP's existence was proven to me and I've been a believer ever since. My HP got me sober no question about it. It wasn't AA that convinced me of an HP. I didn't join AA till 15 days after I first made conscious contact with my HP.

Welcome! I hope you find what will help you and I love your username. Great band!

Mark75

And, Jung was no slouch either!

choublak

Because a lot of people try to play God for too long. Just a guess.

Dee74

I've removed a few posts.

SR works best when we stick to our experience - not your opinion of someone else's experience.

I've tried to be 'light on' in this thread as I think the topic is a useful one - but where the thread goes from here is up to you guys.

D

MythOfSisyphus

I've kind of avoided this thread until now but I'll chime in. Rational Recovery and AVRT don't require any type of supernatural belief or superstition. That works for me. I'm an educated, liberal atheist in the Dawkins/Hitchens/Dennet/Harris mold. There's no way I could hew to any program that required me to depart from my rational senses. The important thing is that you don't drink. Beyond that, just keep what works for you and jettison whatever doesn't.

Fandy

It's not so much the Higher Power thing, but i really cannot relate to the whole, *Powerless/surrender* line.
I'm not powerless, and all the trite phrases, steps annoy me. But yet, i have learned to forgive and not harbor resentments.
i do believe in being grateful that i dont want to drink.
so its a mixed bag, but i avoid the traditional concept like the plague.

Mark75

Fandy... And that is, of course, the point... And it has been tossed around endlessly here at SR. I never saw much of a difference between AVRT, not engaging the beast (choosing not to fight) and AA, admitting powerlessness (choosing not to fight).

The difference, as I see it, comes after... Where does one go now? If giving up, walking away... Is enough to stop drinking for good and all... Then why would anyone put themselves through the work of finding a higher power and those 12 steps?? But if a void remains, then what? For some, for many, it seems, the journey is not over.

I don't mind the slogans so much, it's when they are used to hide behind that causes me some frustration.

tomsteve

sittin here thinkin and a thught came to mind.
everyone is bashing the whole higher power thing in AA being a requirement. i have read the big book quite a few times and havent found anywhere that it says a higher power is a requirement. i have read int he traditions the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.
an open mind is valuable.

powerless: drink a gallon of water and dont pee for 3 days. then try and change the weather. that is how powerful we are.

Mark75

That.

nobshere

I don't see any bashing..questioning perhaps. Comparing not peeing for 3 days and quitting drinking are 2 different things..

MIRecovery

To argue the specifics of methodologies is I think is counter productive. The founders of the different recovery models have put a lot of time and effort in to their programs drawing on many assorted scientific and spiritual principles. They have developed a program that has significant repeatable success. There is no true path to recovery but I know I had to do something different because I had failed completely. I had to get on board 100% with the program of choice and for once in my life believe that I did not know more than the people trying to teach me. I learned to listen, I learned to do things that seemed to make no sense, I learned to do things that made me feel uncompfortable, I learned to do what others did that had long term recovery. It was not until I gave up fighting everything and everybody did I start to get better.

freshstart57

While a HP is not a requirement for attending AA, it most certainly is a requirement for completing the step work, or we are reading a different book, you and I. In fact, if you don't have one, you are told to open your mind and change it.

There are lots of things that we cannot achieve, flying, or striking a match on a marshmallow for example, but we can quit drinking if we choose.

Fandy

FWIW...I do not practice AVRT or AA...I'm just learning about AVRT through the threads here..i've read portions of the BB online too....(sorry I cannot relate, it just irritates me, i get enough of that with my students, I don't need more).

I'm sharing my interpretations...I don't have a Beast, I don't use the surrender method or want to spend my free time in meetings when I have to work, I want to enjoy my sobriety...I do practice gratitude attitude and thank Big G (I do believe in God) for giving me the common sense to stop.

it is starting to sound like cowboys and indians in here. People have legitimate questions, they may not realize you can combine any buffet of methods into an individual recovery.

please don't compare not peeing and quitting drinking, that's just silly.

I hope you all have a great sober day, no matter HOW you get there, because that is really the best option we all have.

tomsteve

i wasnt compaing peeing and quitting.
i was giving an exaple of just how powerful we really are.

if you can stop on your own power that is good. however, if you are here for help for stopping drinking, it is another example of just how powerful you are.

Fandy

I'm here to connect with other people (since February, 2010),

I'm not here to debate power vs. powerless and I'm not here to promote any program.