What's in in it for the addict voice?
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What's in in it for the addict voice?
That illogical thinking which says, "you can moderate," or, "it'll be different this time," etc. - what's with that? If it kills its host body isn't it defeating its own purposes? Is it just something floating out in ether out there and it doesn't matter how many host bodies it kills, it'll just keep on going? Wouldn't it be better off with millions of happy healthy host bodies telling them, "eat your veggies, exercise, get to bed at a reasonable hour, don't hang out with those n'er-do-wells?"
The birds that hang out on rhinos' backs have a symbiotic relationship with the rhino. They eat the bugs off of the rhinos' backs so the rhinos are actually getting something good from the relationship, thus they don't shoo them away. The addictive voice tells you lies only to deceive you and kill you.
Why is self sabotage of one form or another so prevalent in humans? Is it so we will always have something to struggle against to make life more "interesting?" (as if struggling against external things weren't enough) or is there just no rhyme or reason to it? Or is it just God's twisted joke? Or is it that evolution is indifferent and will always involve struggle for supremacy and those who don't make it become extinct?
The birds that hang out on rhinos' backs have a symbiotic relationship with the rhino. They eat the bugs off of the rhinos' backs so the rhinos are actually getting something good from the relationship, thus they don't shoo them away. The addictive voice tells you lies only to deceive you and kill you.
Why is self sabotage of one form or another so prevalent in humans? Is it so we will always have something to struggle against to make life more "interesting?" (as if struggling against external things weren't enough) or is there just no rhyme or reason to it? Or is it just God's twisted joke? Or is it that evolution is indifferent and will always involve struggle for supremacy and those who don't make it become extinct?
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There is a book in the AA program called the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions.
One idea is that we have warped our minds with an obsession for destructive drinking.
I often think of this.
I imagine that is what the alcoholism did to my mind.
The normal functioning of self preservation was set aside for more drinking.
I believe that I warped my brain. I am glad it was just a part of my brain, and that I can re-learn, and add to.
I am hopeful that old thinking can be replaced with new ideas.
One idea is that we have warped our minds with an obsession for destructive drinking.
I often think of this.
I imagine that is what the alcoholism did to my mind.
The normal functioning of self preservation was set aside for more drinking.
I believe that I warped my brain. I am glad it was just a part of my brain, and that I can re-learn, and add to.
I am hopeful that old thinking can be replaced with new ideas.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Renaldo, you can find out a lot of discussion here on SR on precisely this topic if you expand your thinking of 'addict voice' to include, 'alcoholic voice'.
The beast inside us that speaks in that 'addict voice' or AV is the voice of our pleasure center in our lizard brain, is it the amygdala? Anyway, the part of the brain that looks after the pleasure principle, feeling pleasure, looking for pleasure, becoming addicted to it, and so on.
In this sense, it is easy to understand, it is just the drive for pleasure that has gone amok from repeated exposure to alcohol and our physical and psychological dependency on it.
Our addictive voice goes against our rational thinking and the real necessities for survival. This is what makes it possible for us to learn how to accept and disregard these thoughts by strengthening the rational mind and taking any power away from the addict voice.
Lots more information on this line of thinking from the Rational Recovery website.
The beast inside us that speaks in that 'addict voice' or AV is the voice of our pleasure center in our lizard brain, is it the amygdala? Anyway, the part of the brain that looks after the pleasure principle, feeling pleasure, looking for pleasure, becoming addicted to it, and so on.
In this sense, it is easy to understand, it is just the drive for pleasure that has gone amok from repeated exposure to alcohol and our physical and psychological dependency on it.
Our addictive voice goes against our rational thinking and the real necessities for survival. This is what makes it possible for us to learn how to accept and disregard these thoughts by strengthening the rational mind and taking any power away from the addict voice.
Lots more information on this line of thinking from the Rational Recovery website.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Can we please leave this discussion of the lizard brain out of this?
LOL....
Renaldo, this forum is open to all points of view and if you want to exclude AAs from your discussion, perhaps go over to the secular section...
LOL....
Renaldo, this forum is open to all points of view and if you want to exclude AAs from your discussion, perhaps go over to the secular section...
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Ahhh but Mark, we all have an amygdala.
Renaldo, Mark is correct again, what you are seeing is sort of the default reply for many of us. We try to offer our assistance in the context of what we know.
You are most welcome to drop by the Secular Connections forum for 12 Step free discussions. See you there.
Renaldo, Mark is correct again, what you are seeing is sort of the default reply for many of us. We try to offer our assistance in the context of what we know.
You are most welcome to drop by the Secular Connections forum for 12 Step free discussions. See you there.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Lizard brain is easier to spell than amygdala, and refers to the portion of the brain that is common to most animals. Lizards are the simplest creatures that have an amygdala. In fact, that is all they have, just the amygdala, no cortex or neo cortex. These are the decision making and rational parts of the brain, parts that are so well developed in the human brain.
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 249
Parasitic relationships are at least as prevalent as symbiotic. The parasite has no qualms about killing its host, it's indifferent to it, its only goal is to satisfy itself as long as it can.
Alcohol and many other drugs affect the brain as parasites. Of course they'll do whatever they can to persuade us we want to use them, or...our brain will convince us that we want to use them, regardless of the consequences. Hard wiring gone awry. Fortunately, the brain is very adaptable and capable of change, if one is so willing. The trick is recognizing that which is making us sick and being willing to change it; eliminate the parasite before it kills us. It can be very, very hard to see from the inside.
As for why humans self-sabotage, that gets into a host of psychological reasons that extend far beyond addiction. There are reasons people do this, not necessarily involving God nor evolution. Mostly, I suspect, it's just about messed up thinking on the part of the human brain. We're complex creatures living in complex society the likes of which humans have never had to adapt to before. New territory. We're still working it out and have a long way to go.
Curious subject for discussion you present. Food for thought, I like it.
Alcohol and many other drugs affect the brain as parasites. Of course they'll do whatever they can to persuade us we want to use them, or...our brain will convince us that we want to use them, regardless of the consequences. Hard wiring gone awry. Fortunately, the brain is very adaptable and capable of change, if one is so willing. The trick is recognizing that which is making us sick and being willing to change it; eliminate the parasite before it kills us. It can be very, very hard to see from the inside.
As for why humans self-sabotage, that gets into a host of psychological reasons that extend far beyond addiction. There are reasons people do this, not necessarily involving God nor evolution. Mostly, I suspect, it's just about messed up thinking on the part of the human brain. We're complex creatures living in complex society the likes of which humans have never had to adapt to before. New territory. We're still working it out and have a long way to go.
Curious subject for discussion you present. Food for thought, I like it.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by renaldo 
Can we please leave AA and its literature out of something just once?
To answer your question it's all about pleasure. A healthy body rewards things that feel good. The survival drive gets confused and thinks that the buzz caused by synthetic substances like booze means it's more important than food and oxygen.
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Hey Renaldo
I guess from what I read there is evidence of physiological affects and changes that occur in some , but not all people , in terms of how they process alcohol and the effect alcohol has on a whole host of systems within the body including the brain. More research appears to be needed but there does seem to be difference due to genetics and other factors to change the whole physiological response and affect alcohol has on some people. Its been clear from autopsy of long term alcoholics the brain physically changes and I don't see its too far a leap to see how this will interfere with rational thought and driven pleasure seeking activity against what is truly deadly. Since alcohol is a chemical and toxin , its ability to alter brain chemistry is also not hard to see , heck its doing that when we get drunk.
Its postulated the changes happen slowly over time and if you had tried to tell me at 20 I was heading to being an alcoholic I would have laughed but sure enough , I am. I don't see this as some kind of voice myself but more a chemical dependency which when broken , creates a change in balance. Equilibrium is the desired state so for alcoholics , having alcohol is the adjusted equilibrium and the subconscious is aware of how to restore that. Take a drink.
There are a host of ways to work to shed the addiction. FWIW I use AA but I don't throw away the research and best of all programs that get me sober. Also FWIW , mice have been bred that will exhibit alcoholic behaviour so I believe any creature may actually be susceptible to the addition given certain genetics and circumstances.
Just my $0.02
I guess from what I read there is evidence of physiological affects and changes that occur in some , but not all people , in terms of how they process alcohol and the effect alcohol has on a whole host of systems within the body including the brain. More research appears to be needed but there does seem to be difference due to genetics and other factors to change the whole physiological response and affect alcohol has on some people. Its been clear from autopsy of long term alcoholics the brain physically changes and I don't see its too far a leap to see how this will interfere with rational thought and driven pleasure seeking activity against what is truly deadly. Since alcohol is a chemical and toxin , its ability to alter brain chemistry is also not hard to see , heck its doing that when we get drunk.
Its postulated the changes happen slowly over time and if you had tried to tell me at 20 I was heading to being an alcoholic I would have laughed but sure enough , I am. I don't see this as some kind of voice myself but more a chemical dependency which when broken , creates a change in balance. Equilibrium is the desired state so for alcoholics , having alcohol is the adjusted equilibrium and the subconscious is aware of how to restore that. Take a drink.
There are a host of ways to work to shed the addiction. FWIW I use AA but I don't throw away the research and best of all programs that get me sober. Also FWIW , mice have been bred that will exhibit alcoholic behaviour so I believe any creature may actually be susceptible to the addition given certain genetics and circumstances.
Just my $0.02
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Originally Posted by renaldo
That illogical thinking which says, "you can moderate," or, "it'll be different this time," etc. - what's with that? If it kills its host body isn't it defeating its own purposes? Is it just something floating out in ether out there and it doesn't matter how many host bodies it kills, it'll just keep on going? Wouldn't it be better off with millions of happy healthy host bodies telling them, "eat your veggies, exercise, get to bed at a reasonable hour, don't hang out with those n'er-do-wells?"
The birds that hang out on rhinos' backs have a symbiotic relationship with the rhino. They eat the bugs off of the rhinos' backs so the rhinos are actually getting something good from the relationship, thus they don't shoo them away. The addictive voice tells you lies only to deceive you and kill you.
Why is self sabotage of one form or another so prevalent in humans? Is it so we will always have something to struggle against to make life more "interesting?" (as if struggling against external things weren't enough) or is there just no rhyme or reason to it? Or is it just God's twisted joke? Or is it that evolution is indifferent and will always involve struggle for supremacy and those who don't make it become extinct?
The birds that hang out on rhinos' backs have a symbiotic relationship with the rhino. They eat the bugs off of the rhinos' backs so the rhinos are actually getting something good from the relationship, thus they don't shoo them away. The addictive voice tells you lies only to deceive you and kill you.
Why is self sabotage of one form or another so prevalent in humans? Is it so we will always have something to struggle against to make life more "interesting?" (as if struggling against external things weren't enough) or is there just no rhyme or reason to it? Or is it just God's twisted joke? Or is it that evolution is indifferent and will always involve struggle for supremacy and those who don't make it become extinct?
It could just be the pleasure principle. I like your idea better though, like alcoholics are just possessed with some demon like in Fallen.
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
Renaldo, you can find out a lot of discussion here on SR on precisely this topic if you expand your thinking of 'addict voice' to include, 'alcoholic voice'.
The beast inside us that speaks in that 'addict voice' or AV is the voice of our pleasure center in our lizard brain, is it the amygdala? Anyway, the part of the brain that looks after the pleasure principle, feeling pleasure, looking for pleasure, becoming addicted to it, and so on.
In this sense, it is easy to understand, it is just the drive for pleasure that has gone amok from repeated exposure to alcohol and our physical and psychological dependency on it.
Our addictive voice goes against our rational thinking and the real necessities for survival. This is what makes it possible for us to learn how to accept and disregard these thoughts by strengthening the rational mind and taking any power away from the addict voice.
Lots more information on this line of thinking from the Rational Recovery website.
The beast inside us that speaks in that 'addict voice' or AV is the voice of our pleasure center in our lizard brain, is it the amygdala? Anyway, the part of the brain that looks after the pleasure principle, feeling pleasure, looking for pleasure, becoming addicted to it, and so on.
In this sense, it is easy to understand, it is just the drive for pleasure that has gone amok from repeated exposure to alcohol and our physical and psychological dependency on it.
Our addictive voice goes against our rational thinking and the real necessities for survival. This is what makes it possible for us to learn how to accept and disregard these thoughts by strengthening the rational mind and taking any power away from the addict voice.
Lots more information on this line of thinking from the Rational Recovery website.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 603
Originally Posted by Mark75
Can we please leave this discussion of the lizard brain out of this?
LOL....
Renaldo, this forum is open to all points of view and if you want to exclude AAs from your discussion, perhaps go over to the secular section...
LOL....
Renaldo, this forum is open to all points of view and if you want to exclude AAs from your discussion, perhaps go over to the secular section...
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 603
Originally Posted by YVRguy
mice have been bred that will exhibit alcoholic behaviour so I believe any creature may actually be susceptible to the addition given certain genetics and circumstances.
Just my $0.02
Just my $0.02
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Join Date: Oct 2012
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Originally Posted by renaldo
Sorry, you've got a point. I've been so focused on this newcomers section that I didn't think to look to see if there's a secular section.
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No, post away, the point was that we can't be exclusionary... These threads are the place where good stuff happens... I will overlook the "whacky" statement
I am all about the science, it's not that. I really get that phylogeny recapitulates ontogeny and have enjoyed studying and learning that concept...
I am all about the science, it's not that. I really get that phylogeny recapitulates ontogeny and have enjoyed studying and learning that concept...
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If the idea that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny was completely true, it would certainly make constructing phylogenies a lot easier. We could study an organism’s development and read its history directly, but there are a number of other counter examples like the axolotl salamander evolutionary chain. It is still a useful idea tho.
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