artsoul

I think it's just the denial we build up in order to keep drinking. On one level we know we shouldn't do it, it's bad for us, etc..., so we reconcile it by rationalizing, minimizing, blaming something/someone, and hoping someday we'll be able to find a way to make it work.

Not very philosophical, but oh well...

nobshere

I think artsoul hit the nail on the head. I cringe every time I read that "something" is out to kill us..nothing is out to kill us..not alcohol..not alcoholism..not even our "lizard brain". We simply love to drink..and like artsoul stated we will make up excuses to keep doing it. Pretty cut and dry.

Kza

I have nothing against calling it the beast or talking about lizard brain or higher powers if it works, it's a good thing. But there isn't a shred of empirical evidence for all of this and on some level we are conning ourselves. we want to drink, that's it.

I saw a psychiatrist several times when I was in my early twenties who dealt with all the alcohol cases in my Natonal Health District and he said something about drinking that I will never forget:

Most people get away with it.

nobshere

Kza, I respect your opinion but disagree non the less. I don't believe it is a good thing to delude ourselves with the notion of higher powers and beasts out to get us.

MalkavianEmily

My feeling is that the beast, or whatever you want to call it, is trying to protect us, but it's got things horribly wrong and misdirected. It thinks that alcohol/drugs will help us, whereas, in fact, the opposite is the case. The fact that, at first, they seem to do just that is what makes it confused.
Plus, of course, we don't repeatedly do things that we don't enjoy, or that hurt (if we don't have to), but things we enjoy and like... we do. And while we're having fun, the survival instinct is getting warped.

hypochondriac

Just a thought... but maybe all this arguing over recovery methods is actually our AV, keeping us stagnating by arguing which way is best rather than actually doing anything. I'll put my hand up and admit that I did that, with AA at least. I'm not an advocate of blindly accepting anything but it is better to do something than nothing.

renaldo

I agree with that, for sure. Let go and let God? You mean, like earthquakes and stuff?

Another thing that gets my goat is the "nothing happens by accident" thing. You mean that during a storm when a tree breaks and crashes into your house someone planned that as a learning experience for you? Trees break during storms. That's it. And the storm wasn't sent to punish us for being gay.

MODERATOR: FEEL FREE TO DELETE ALL OF THIS POST EXCEPT FOR THE FIRST SENTENCE IF YOU THINK IT'S NOT APPROPRIATE, BUT PLEASE DON'T DELETE THE ENTIRE THREAD.

nobshere

Hey renaldo..I certainly hear you. I have always thought that sobriety was an inside job..people only achieve it when they really want it. And yes I agree storms are not a punishment for being gay..absolute rubbish.

Mark75

I guess I made the assumption that the idea of the midbrain/reptile brain ... sort of was relevant to the concept of ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny, or whatever, LOL... Interesting read, though, on the salamanders, good stuff, thanx!

Certainly the innate primitive drive for self preservation and survival needs reinforcement... Food tastes good, you know, LOL... That somehow this gets subverted to the midbrain's drive for alcohol, or whatever, as being necessary for survival... Is how it was presented to me.

NEOMARXIST

My experience on this issue is very much to keep things nice and simple and basically not try to intelectualise it all. Regardless of the brain science behind it all or whatever I know that if I want to continue being happy and my life moving forwards then I must not drink alcohol; simple! The beauty of where I've got to in my recovery is that I have no desire to drink alcohol.

I think it's important to take care of the basics if you're an alcoholic and want to stay sober and that is to not drink alcohol. I think it's easy to get bogged down in the science behind addiction and to never get yourself out of the addiction in the first place.

Also in my own experience there is lots about recovery which technically isn't scientific in nature necessarily, at least that could be objectively measured, but neverless leads to happiness and the ability to be free from any desire to wish to drink alcohol.

Ultimately staying sober is what is important to me.

Dee74

If threads get too off track, or flaming or arguments ensue, we close them (rule 4).

It's up to you guys to make sure that won't happen here.

D

freshstart57

That's the way I see it too, Mark, there is no beast inside us obviously. But I do agree that there is some primitive aspect of our brain that seeks pleasure. In the case of addiction, the idea of a parasitic drive is helpful in understanding that this drive for pleasure gets messed up and can lead to following our primitive brain to pleasure instead of our rational brain to survival.

One way to understand 'hitting bottom' is that the survival drive finally takes precedence over the pleasure drive and we quit or die. Fortunately, before we hit bottom, we still have our rational brain standing by, ready to jump in and take over if we let it.

Mark75

So, back to the OP... what's in it for our AV? Pleasure! I know , duh, LOL... But then there is that survival thing, which the AV cannot understand, it is not on even it's radar. I guess to reconcile things, in my own thinking on this topic, which is sketchy at best... survival and pleasure are tied together... food tastes good, it feels good to be warm and dry, the act of procreation (well, you know, LOL)... all that... that subversion happens in addiction?? Survival and pleasure diverge...

And of course, really, however we understand it... we must disengage from that AV, it is not, can not, be interested in our survival at all...

So DON"T DRINK EVEN IF YOUR TAIL (amphibian's ass) FALLS OFF... (poor attempt at humor...)

instant

Guess we all have an appetite for pleasure, and we persist despite the mounting costs. We agree that this is very puzzling and it's origins are within us.

The fact that alcohol is an addictive substance is not given enough emphasis. The withdrawal has a very long tail the manifestations of which are cognitive and emotional in nature.

Notmyrealname

I used to enjoy this board but the AA disciples have made it bad and unpleasant. I used to come here everyday to look for support from other people in my situation but now it's smug alcoholics anonymous acolytes all over the place.. If I wanted an AA forum I could use a different URL.

Mark75

The only overt AA reference in this thread was from a woman who has struggled and now is finding recovery and has found some success and she shared her own experience... You go Veritas...

There are far more antiAA posts than AA acolytes in this thread and if you got a problem with AAs taking part in a discussion in a general forum on recovery... then please, for your own sake, and ours, find another URL.

freshstart57

Let's not start waving brushes with tar on them now, that just confuses the new folks and the lurkers. There is no monopoly on smugness, take me for example. Please.

hypochondriac

I always found the smug sober people quite inspiring x

MythOfSisyphus

What's in it for the AV? Simple pleasure, gratification- no more, no less. The AV lives in The Eternal Now. There is not future to worry about, no past to remember. The AV never feels the hangover nor the shame. The AV doesn't have to face the judge after a DUI or explain to the boss why you came in drunk- again. The AV is that buddy that's there to help you get into trouble but always leaves you holding the bag and leaving you to deal with the aftermath yourself.