nobshere

Thanks Mark for saying you don't understand. I however do. AA's primary purpose is to be of maximum service to god. It's in the big book, which I have read. Our society has come to a crossroads, those who use religion to further an agenda, just look at our presidential candidates..lol. Sobriety is a choice, it has NOTHING to do with gods or hp's. I am happy you have found a way out, that religion is your path BUT for a growing number of people a belief in god has nothing to do with sobriety. I applaud your 6000 posts, I am sure you have helped many people, just be aware aa is not the only way, it's just your way. Much love and respect. B

PaperDolls

nobshere - Actually AA's primary purpose is to carry it's message to other alcoholics. It's in the book.

Instead of debating the religion vs. spirituality thing (it's impossible that we will all agree on that topic) tell us how you stay sober. Let's just focus on that.

IndaMiricale

I live to maximize to to god. My god, which I still to this day have no idea what it looks like. Its no shape of a human I can tell you that. When I dream and mediate about it , I guess the best way to describe it is , to me it looks like the aurora borealis.

But I say both the serenity prayer and lords prayer, because it just links me to that each time. So religion has nothing to do with my sobriety but my GOD has everything to do with it.

But thats me.

IndaMiricale

Yes PaperDolls

I stay active in and out of the rooms
I try to work the steps daily in my life
I go to meetings
I pray and meditate
I read
I workout
Just to name some , and of course my hand is always there for the fellow alcoholic.

bryangt

Hey SpenceH--I often find the slogans repetitive as some of the AA rhetoric. But I sometimes feel they help. I'm at 17 months and I will agree--it ain't simple. We have to do the work. I have a hard time with my expectations and staying in the now. At those times I say to myself--'i may not be happy where i'm at, but if I didn't stick with AA, i'm afraid to see where I would be....and i know I'm better off than I was.' I also work on accepting the fact that AA works differently for us all as we all have different degrees of issues. I often get twisted with those on the pink cloud & I wish was there also. I accept the fact to get better, to stay sober, it is going to take time. One day at a time.

nobshere

PaperDolls, if i so humbly correct you the bb clearly states what it's PRIMARY purpose is. No matter, how I stayed sober was never ingesting alcohol. No hp, no god, no prayer. I wanted to be sober more than I wanted to drink. Easy? NO. It took a lot of hard work, sleepless nights, crying and pain but I found my way thru. Like Andy Dufrene says..Get busy living or get busy dying...I choose to live.

Mark75

Well nobshere, It's nice talking with you. I find it amazing the way in which language can unite and divide, you know.

Religion has not been my way out. I didn't get sober in church. I did at AA though, and my experience there was what I call spiritual... I am also catholic, and I get my religion at mass.

No matter, I think it's cool that we have our own experiences to share. The important thing is that we get sober and be happy.

PaperDolls

I'm not here to debate anything.

Thanks for sharing how you got sober and stay sober. I learn something from everyone here.

I love that quote, Get busy living or get busy dying. I never knew who it was attributed to. Thanks.

RobbyRobot

Well, let's be clear on the text.

The 1st Ed text pg 76-77 states:

"To some people we need not, and probably should not emphasize the spiritual feature on our first approach. We might prejudice them. At the moment we are trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us. It is seldom wise to approach an individual, who still smarts from our injustice to him, and announce that we have gone religious. In the prize ring, this would be called leading with the chin. Why lay ourselves open to being branded fanatics or religious bores? We may kill a future opportunity to carry a beneficial message. But our man is sure to be impressed with a sincere desire to set right the wrong. He is going to be more interested in a demonstration of good will than in our talk of spiritual discoveries."

Step 12 states:

"12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs."

* underlines and italics are mine*

nobshere

Mark and paperdolls, I appreciate the latitude you have shown me. It has not gone unnoticed. I will say that recovery takes on many forms, I am not a supporter of aa as you can tell, I have seen first hand the damage it can cause newcomers but I would not tell you to abandon the teachings of Bill Wilson as you both find solace in his path. I would however caution you to look closely at what it is you share with those whom do not delve into the religious aspect of life. There are many of us who believe that life is simply choice not divine intervention. Had I thought life was guided by a supreme being I would think him (or her) quite inhumane given the state of our world as it be.

nobshere

Thank you Robby, to announce aa religious at first glance would most certainly scare away the newcomers...teaspoons not buckets.

PaperDolls

I'm not a non supporter of any path to recovery. Especially if I don't understand it.

I just share my experience. That's all any of us can do no matter what path we've chosen.

nobshere

Indeed Paperdolls, I so agree.

CraigA

This a great thread, what a way to discuss God! or not God! Either way we are communicating about God. I love how our egos want to be right we have to be heard.

The first 164 pgs are a blue print for sobriety, the stories are for people finding a Higher Power. The Oxford group was a religious group, AA is not there is no dogma like in religion, there is no specific GOD- JESUS, BUDDHA, MUHAMMAD like in other RELIGIONS.

You say you read the BB well don't read it with an agenda because when you go into something with a specific agenda, and it don't really matter what the subject is, when you have something against something you will only see your side of the street, keep an open mind! If you were truly in the program you will see it is not a religious program, some people might make comments or do things differently but none the less it is one of the few organizations that hasn't been corrupted by humans (no money laundring, no body getting rich, etc... like the government or other businesses). AA is aboout attraction not promotion, either for or against. If you go to meetings you will hear what our primary purpose is, but you have to believe in the program in order to understand it. I heard someone say that AA is a spiritual playground getting you ready for a Higher Power whether you go back to religion (you wouldn't have to back to religion if AA was religious(what denomination is it))If it was religious I guess Muslims and cathloc or protestants can't be in the same meeting it would be useless. Nothing but argueing about whose God was right.

The work of the program is in the steps (focus on ourselves, change our thinking and behaviors), have a Higher Power, and service work, yes for one to be of service to God but not our primary purpose, Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. Where have I heard this before?

I hope you have a path to sobriety and be able to maintain it. I would like to hear how you (all) stay sober on a daily basis and deal with life's issues on a daily basis because we all need help with that no matter what program we are in or where we are at!

Keep posting and i will enjoy reading!!!

nobshere

Hey Craig. The first 164 pages is a blue print for aa sobriety. Sobriety as you know is not aa exclusive. LOL. I never read the bb with an agenda I read it cause I wanted to get sober. Keeping an open mind means understanding those whom may not adopt you vision of life and its origins. A great quote from a great mind Christopher Hitchens said "Faith is the surrender of the mind; it’s the surrender of reason, it’s the surrender of the only thing that makes us different from other mammals. It’s our need to believe, and to surrender our skepticism and our reason, our yearning to discard that and put all our trust or faith in someone or something, that is the sinister thing to me. Of all the supposed virtues, faith must be the most overrated."

nobshere

Take the risk of thinking for yourself, much more happiness, truth, beauty, and wisdom will come to you that way.

Anna

Let's be careful to step away from any kind of debate/argument.

The OP's original post was to question the simplicity of AA.

I think we can all agree that there is nothing simple about recovery, but our motivation can help us find the answers that we are seeking and the peace of a sober life.

PaperDolls

I'm pretty sure we're way off track from the OPs post.

If you notice the OP hasn't been back to this thread.

nobshere

I'm sorry if somehow I caused any problems. I'm a huge fan of critical thinking and didn't mean to rattle anyones cage.

Anna

Time to close this thread, temporarily at least.