flutter

In my 4th sober year, I don't use AA in my recovery, never have. We all have to find what works for us, but more importantly what we are willing to work for.

onlythetruth

Quite true. But some of us do better when we don't try to twist ourselves into knots trying to fit into something that doesn't fit us.

That was certainly the case for me.

neferkamichael

I immediately say NO, when the urge to drink comes into my mind. I do attend AA meetings on a regular because I believe in the fellowship of the program. The bottom line reason I'm 2 years sober is because I choose to be sober.

changer

bottom line of this whole thread- stay sober.
whatever you need to do, do it.

we are all protective of our own methods of recovery because they are saving our lives.

just. stay. sober.

miamifella

Why does the line, "Girls! You're both pretty!" come to mind.

This is not either/or. There is clearly recovery inside and outside of AA. Some people recover with it. Some without it. Even in medicine there is no cure for any disease that works each and every time for each and every patient. It is no dishonor that AA, Smart Recovery, AVRT, etc work for some people and not for others. It is not a criticism of any program to say, "It did not work for me."

I do agree that support is needed for effective recovery. But that support can come from a number of sources.

I think it is more important to look at the principles behind the program. My recovery now is based on a foundation very close to that of AA. (Honesty, Service, Connection to something greater than myself, Continuing self-examination) I think AA gave me the vision of what my recovery should be and I am grateful for that, even if the program itself did not take me there. But I have a great respect for 12-step recovery because it DOES lead many people there.

I suspect that many of our individual paths actually lead to the same end.

OheemJah

Congratulations on your two weeks! AA wasn't appealing to me either. Have you looked up rational recovery or the AVRT method? It made more sense to me than AA. Keep up the good work!

RobbyRobot

Hi khgmr63,

Congratulations on your 2 weeks!

No one person, or one group, speaks for the whole AA. What AA is and what it isn't has already been decided, written in stone, with the publication of the Big Book, and the 12x12. AA General Services Offices speaks for the organization of AA, and its corporational responsibilites but not above what is and isn't the AA program beyond what is already defined within the BB of AA.

So, although many members think they can say whatever and still be talking AA, they really can't share anything more then their own experiences, and this is as it should, and must be, so as to keep AA intact with its original vision and purpose. There is nothing new in the program to be added. It is done. It works as designed. An AA solution for an AA defined alcoholism.

AA worked for me not because it is or was the only thing that would work, and not because nothing else would have worked. No Way. AA worked for me because, and only because I discovered what AA defines as alcoholism is what I actually experienced, and what they defined as a solution to that same alcoholism, is also what I discovered works for that same alcoholism. They walked their talk, and their examples made sense to me. If either of those understandings did not work for me, it would be a total waste of my life to keep spinning my wheels, hoping for different results all the while misunderstanding what was what.

AA is not about having to suffer and groan and fail, hoping that someday a drinker will get it right. These stories do happen within the fellowship, but its not AA to suffer with alcoholism. AA sobriety is also not a forced live-or-die situation. Alcoholism can of course kill the drinker, and all to often people want to have drama about either do AA or die, and this is not the message or purpose of AA either. AA offers an AA solution, and nothing else but an AA solution, while at the same time AA knows other solutions exist, and that is all good. Some members still nonetheless feel that AA is the only way because of their experiences, yet these members are only expressing their opinions, and nothing more. They are misinformed, and have closed their minds, which in fact is not the AA Way.

I have a wonderful AA sobriety, and have enjoyed my sobriety for over thirty years now. I'm only an example of AA sobriety absolutely because I fully accept and believe my alcoholism is an illness, as defined by AA. My alcoholism and my sobriety are two faces of the same coin. I cannot have one without the other. No problemo.

There are many ways to enjoy a sans-alcohol life, a sober life, a spiritual life, and any kind of life one chooses when one chooses to quit drinking for good and always. Many ways work which bring ultimate happiness and joy to the non-drinker, to the alcoholic, to whatever and whoever. AA is but only another way, another choice, nothing more or less. I'm also interested now in AVRT. I don't need to forsake my AA heritage to work AVRT, I have discovered. I'm confident I will be successful with AVRT too. Yay me, lol.

Nonetheless, only AA sobriety comes from doing AA program realised from accepting an AA definition of what is, and is not, alcoholism. Clearly, its not for everbody, and it was never a purpose of AA to be all things for all people at whatever the cost. AA is not about convincing people to be AA. It never was, and never will be, no matter how often certain confused and unfortunate members wish AA to be the best of the best and fvck the rest, its just not what AA is about.

freshstart57

Very cool post, RobbyRobot, thought provoking. I hadn't considered that there are different types of alcoholism, and each one gets its solution.

For me, my reality is that I do not have an incurable disease, I am not powerless, I am not plagued with moral shortcomings and defects of character, my thinking is just fine, and I take responsibility for my actions. I guess that is why I bristle so much when someone tells me otherwise, and then tells me I am refusing or unable to face reality.

I can see now that 12 step programs address these issues in people who do not feel as I do. Let me ask you this, Robby - Do you think that these people would feel that way if they hadn't been taught to believe these things? Do you think that you would have believed you were diseased if you hadn't received 'a diagnosis'?

imaquitter

If you are really powerless then why aren't they issuing straight jackets?

It may SEEM that you are powerless but drinking isn't a knee jerk reaction. To me it kinda helps to consider it as an immature childish reaction, especially when it becomes the answer to everything in life.

Mark75

The only time I read on this forum, that kind of statement, is when someone like yourself is complaining about how pushy and obnoxious AAs are... What message or thread was that said in, exactly? You can easily insert the link and we can all read it. I read a lot of posts here, and I don't recall that being said to anyone, though I could be wrong.

Congrats on your two weeks! If you don't need AA, that's awesome, If you don't want it, that's OK too... seriously, be sober any way you can.

freshstart57

Mark, I hear 'meeting makers make it' all the time. You are correct that it does not say that if you don't go to meetings you will fail, but that would be a difficult position to maintain. I would think that anyone who would say that phrase means exactly the obverse, as khgmr stated.

tomsteve

drink a gallon of water and dont pee for 3 days. it will show you how powerful you are.

it isnt a knee jerk reaction. for an alcoholic, it is a mental obsession and compulsion and a physical craving( that is why poeple can die goin cold turkey) that makes real alcoholics like me drink.

changer

i can't understand why this matters so much
all of us are sober, right?
is it working?
great!
keep it up.

RobbyRobot

Hey freshstart,

Thanks, and great question. Its like anything else, our sense and perceptions of reality come from our experiences, and the short answer would be they would have felt differently if they had been taught differently. As for myself, because of my personal experience with polio as a 1yr old, and the life-time of medical complications since, my understanding of illness is very in-my-face and up-close-and-personal, you know?

Different schools of thought yet exist on what is what with alcoholism. Several workable definitions remain workable, and all seem to have some benefits, including alcohol is just another addictive chemical and no more important then any other addictively speaking when deciding on recovery methods, so then alcoholism can't exist in the first place.

Just like any other 'illness' which remains somehow somewhat undefined, different solutions are in play simultaneously. AIDS, cancer, the common cold, diabetes, schizophrenia, bi-polar (manic depression), heart disease, hyper-tension, anxiety, and the list is endless...

When illness or sickness or disease happen, and no known cure scientifically exists, things can get somewhat surreal when it comes to what healings work and what dosen't. Almost anything is on the table when a person is dying or seriously ill and nothing seems to be helping. We've all heard the stories representative of a host of illnesses...

Back to speaking for myself, I'm an intelligent guy, and its not so much i received a 'diagnosis of alcoholism' its more I identified with the AA definition of alcoholism, and when i put that definition into play, and did the program, my result was AA sobriety. This has been my experience, and not so much what I wanted, or was taught to want. My background certainly provided me with an open mind to medical challenges yes, but I'm not a guy who just agrees to things, hoping for the best, and then stupidly ignore whatever dosen't 'fit' my personal requirements for wish-fullfilment, lol.

I will say, after meeting thousands of fellow members in AA, plenty of them didn't have a clue of what AA really stands for, and fellowship was most attractive to them over and above the program. It was not a problem for me, I've always been live and let live, so no difference to me what others believe or don't believe. My thinking and doing has always been to be as authentic as I can be in life. AA did not teach me that understanding. I learnt it on the streets, speaking for myself. The fastest way to die on the streets is to be phony. The smartest way to live on the streets is to be real. Be myself. I just did the math is all. I'm not the first. I did the same with alcoholism -- for me, the smart money is it's an illness, and the solution is a revolutionary change of psyche, and a sans-alcohol life lived ever after. AA provided a gateway into that solution, and so I walked through and onto my chosen path. I have also chosen to live as a spiritual person since my sobriety began, not soley because the AA BB suggests, but because my changed psyche interestingly invites me to such a life, and I welcome the invitation. My smart bet is not guaranteed to be the ultimate smartest for anybody else, but neither can anybody else claim what is the smartest for me, or for anyone else either, can anybody claim what would be best for others. We can all only claim what is best for ourselves, and that only from experience of hind-sight, yeah?

I'm also liking AVRT, I know that, lol....

FWIW, I do not accept that my alcoholism is a 'disease' per se. My alcoholism is a unique illness of mind, body, and spirit. It has a unique solution as well for my mind, body, and spirit. What's there not to love?

onlythetruth

Well, it matters because--it matters.

We've settled, I think, that different approaches work for different people. I think we've also settled that some approaches really DON'T work for certain people.

But for a long time, recovery was treated as a One Size Fits All thing. Which was fine if you fit into the size, and plenty of people did--still do.

But if you didn't, then you were SOL. If you were having trouble getting sober, there was literally no place else to turn. No help was available. Even if you did get sober, your recovery was viewed as "less than". You were called a "dry drunk" and your relapse was assumed to be imminent.

This is how it was, (almost) 14 years ago when I quit drinking.

This attitude has changed a lot since 1998, there's no doubt about that. But it's not yet a done deal. There are still many areas where the message hasn't yet been received: that each person who has a desire to quit an addiction deserves a chance, even if he or she doesn't fit into the famous One Size.

Folks who are new to recovery may not believe that this is important, but the fact is that one of the reasons for this positive change is that people like me have fought for it.

I will be happy when that is no longer necessary, when it is truly a world of Many Sizes. I think we are getting there.

Mark75

Yea, I hear that too, and, well, meeting makers make meetings... LOL. I see you are doing AVRT and through what I have learned here at SR and the reading I have done as a result of my interest that was sparked here at SR... I have seen that it is a great tool for recovery, and is c/w AA's program, not counter.

IDK, it just seems that every newly recovering alcoholic who comes here, who doesn't want to use AA complains about how pushy AA's are, how we tell them they will fail if they don't go to AA meetings... Where, in what thread did we say that?

But it really doesn't matter, does it? I guess I will just have to do a little inventory on this, LOL, seriously. My problem, not the OP's.

changer

well, i am new to recovery. there is a lot i don't yet understand about my own alcoholism, much less anyone elses.
i think that i just need to stay away from conversations on this subject, because it just bums me out.
i want to continue to keep staying sober, and i want that for all of you, too.
best of luck.

Anna

Thanks for saying this.

Our goal in the Newcomers is to make it a safe and welcoming place for all and we continue to do that, trying to maintain respect for all.

RevivingOphelia

I love reading and learning about everyone's experiences with different forms of recovery -- I feel it will help me with choices of my own.

Great thread and thanks to all who have shared their journeys -- whether it be through a program, on their own, or something else entirely!

freshstart57

Thanks, Mark, I understand your point now. Best to you too.