AVRT Questions
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Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2012
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AVRT Questions
Hi all, Saturday night, my weakness, can't seem to kick it. 
I have no desire, no interest in drinking at all until this day , it's crazy how one lousy day can manipulate me so badly.
Anyway, I've purchased and I've been reading the book The Art of AVRT. It is interesting, and I so want to let it help me. However, I'm just not sure I'm getting it. I understand the addictive voice, but in reality it is just the side of me that wants to drink, right? It's not another entity, it's me. I've been battling that voice for years and I'm fully aware of it. How can knowing about that voice help me?
I know the voice, it says I'm drinking and that's it, I am aware of it but knowing that hasn't helped me yet. Today, it was a battle in my mind all day, it was torture. At times I decided I'm NOT drinking, and then the next few minutes I decided I was. I so want to be free of this.
I'm at the beginning of the book, but I've read a lot online on AVRT, I thought it might help me but I'm losing hope because I'm not sure how to let it help me. I always thought the first step was admitting the problem. I'm fully aware that I abuse alcohol. I do it to escape my own head, because this is the day I hate life.
I drank tonight, yet another Saturday, same story. Sad thing is I didn't even enjoy it, I'm going to bed soon pretty much sober, I stopped hours ago because I felt just crappy, tired, cranky, not satisfied......
Thanks all for any advice, I do appreciate this board, I just feel like I keep failing at this Tomorrow I'll be reading my AVRT book some more and I'll be at an all time low again...
I have no desire, no interest in drinking at all until this day , it's crazy how one lousy day can manipulate me so badly. Anyway, I've purchased and I've been reading the book The Art of AVRT. It is interesting, and I so want to let it help me. However, I'm just not sure I'm getting it. I understand the addictive voice, but in reality it is just the side of me that wants to drink, right? It's not another entity, it's me. I've been battling that voice for years and I'm fully aware of it. How can knowing about that voice help me?
I know the voice, it says I'm drinking and that's it, I am aware of it but knowing that hasn't helped me yet.
Today, it was a battle in my mind all day, it was torture. At times I decided I'm NOT drinking, and then the next few minutes I decided I was. I so want to be free of this.I'm at the beginning of the book, but I've read a lot online on AVRT, I thought it might help me but I'm losing hope because I'm not sure how to let it help me. I always thought the first step was admitting the problem. I'm fully aware that I abuse alcohol. I do it to escape my own head, because this is the day I hate life.
I drank tonight, yet another Saturday, same story. Sad thing is I didn't even enjoy it, I'm going to bed soon pretty much sober, I stopped hours ago because I felt just crappy, tired, cranky, not satisfied......
Thanks all for any advice, I do appreciate this board, I just feel like I keep failing at this
Tomorrow I'll be reading my AVRT book some more and I'll be at an all time low again...
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
Hi Abby
I'm no authority on AVRT I'm afraid. I do like the idea that the Beast is powerless without our cooperation tho - if we don't raise the glass to our lips, we don't drink
Maybe entering into a dialogue with it is self defeating?
'No' is pretty powerful stuff.
I'm sure you'll get answers here too but, if you haven't seen them yet, there's a number of threads in our Secular Connections forum that may help you as well
D
I'm no authority on AVRT I'm afraid. I do like the idea that the Beast is powerless without our cooperation tho - if we don't raise the glass to our lips, we don't drink
Maybe entering into a dialogue with it is self defeating?
'No' is pretty powerful stuff.
I'm sure you'll get answers here too but, if you haven't seen them yet, there's a number of threads in our Secular Connections forum that may help you as well
D
Last edited by Dee74; 05-19-2012 at 09:42 PM.
Professional Drunk
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Toronto
Posts: 465
Remember how crappy you feel now or tomorrow morning the next time you think about having a drink. I get through my cravings by thinking the night and next day through. I know if I start drinking, I will feel good for 2, maybe 3 hours, but then I will continue chasing that high and end up drunk and feeling nothing inside. I will wake up tomorrow feeling depressed and anxious, and I won't feel normal until Wednesday. That's enough of a deterrent for me.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
There are 4, almost 5 threads on AVRT in the secular section as Dee mentioned. There is a huge amount of information in those discussions. Also, you can PM Kanamit here at SR for more information and links.
Best to you. It's beautiful to be free of addiction. You CAN do this!
Best to you. It's beautiful to be free of addiction. You CAN do this!
I have full faith in your capacity to recover, even if you do not.
-TU
-TU
SR Fan
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 7,910
I understand the addictive voice, but in reality it is just the side of me that wants to drink, right? It's not another entity, it's me. I've been battling that voice for years and I'm fully aware of it. How can knowing about that voice help me?
I'm not sure it takes a formal program, but it really helps when you see which thoughts are part of the addiction so that you can start questioning them and letting them go. That's my own take on it, anyway.......
Don't consider yourself a failure, Abby..... You're just working on the solution......:ghug3
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by AbbyAngel 
I understand the addictive voice, but in reality it is just the side of me that wants to drink, right? It's not another entity, it's me.
The subject of whether the Beast really exists, or if it is really "you" comes up often enough that it warrants some discussion. People new to AVRT often have trouble thinking of the Beast as a separate entity, or at least a foreign one, and may initially consider it an irrational belief, which it is not. Indeed, the idea that the Addictive Voice (AV) amounts to irrational thinking that may be challenged, disputed, or reasoned against is probably the most common misunderstanding of AVRT.
To be sure, the Beast, which is just the desire to drink/use, physically resides within your body, and the AV will use the pronoun "I" in order to conceal the existence of the Beast, but consider that this was not always the case. The Beast did not always exist, after all, but rather was born. Few people would argue that they had a Beast, and an accompanying AV urging them to drink, drink, drink, prior to ever drinking in the first place.
Furthermore, since the Beast is doing what it knows beyond doubt is necessary for its own survival, the Beast is actually an autonomous, rational entity. It would be irrational for any entity to not try to survive, after all, and to the Beast, abstinence is akin to death. One might argue that the Beast is acting irrationally since it will eventually kill its host, and itself die in the process, but the Beast doesn't actually know or understand this.
Similarly, a drowning man may, in his desperate attempts to stay above water by clinging to anything that floats, inadvertently drown someone who is trying to save him, and himself die in the process, but trying to survive is not irrational. Therefore, there is no point in trying to reason with the Beast in order to point out how irrational it would be to drink/use, any more than it would be to try and reason with a drowning man in a panic.
To be sure, the Beast, which is just the desire to drink/use, physically resides within your body, and the AV will use the pronoun "I" in order to conceal the existence of the Beast, but consider that this was not always the case. The Beast did not always exist, after all, but rather was born. Few people would argue that they had a Beast, and an accompanying AV urging them to drink, drink, drink, prior to ever drinking in the first place.
The Beast was born in an orgasm of biological pleasure that exceeds the common, natural dimensions of physical gratification. It emerged full-grown, even though earlier uses of the substance did not fully activate its immutable being. Instead of crying, its first words were, “Ohhhhh. That’s so gooood! This is what life is all about! You will do this again, and again, and again. Feed me!” And like a parent tending an infant of another species, you fed it, and it grew, and now it has turned on you. It will kill you to survive, unknowing that it, too, will die in the process, so the choice is between your own life and the object of yesterday’s affection—the Beast within.
____________________________________
The Journal of RR, Vol. 9, Iss.6, July -Aug., 1997
Copyright © Rational Recovery Systems, Inc.
All Rights Reserved
____________________________________
The Journal of RR, Vol. 9, Iss.6, July -Aug., 1997
Copyright © Rational Recovery Systems, Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Similarly, a drowning man may, in his desperate attempts to stay above water by clinging to anything that floats, inadvertently drown someone who is trying to save him, and himself die in the process, but trying to survive is not irrational. Therefore, there is no point in trying to reason with the Beast in order to point out how irrational it would be to drink/use, any more than it would be to try and reason with a drowning man in a panic.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by artsoul
I think it helps us detach a little, if that makes sense
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,451
Hi, Abby. Sounds to me like you're making progress; I know coming to SR was a big step forward for me.
Oh yeah, that's how it got for me. I just sort of wallowed; the best I could hope for was a kind of numbness. I'm so glad to be out of that place. You'll be glad too.
It helped me to separate myself from the desire, to disengage and take a step back, so I could rationally assess it. I found the act of observing the desire would sap a lot of its strength. Much about AVRT reminds me of Buddhist and Stoic teachings about how to avoid being ruled by emotions. You should definitely check out those threads.
Sad thing is I didn't even enjoy it
It's not another entity, it's me.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 5,678
Hey Abby, I've found a lot of the AVRT stuff a bit convoluted and difficult to get. Sometimes I just wanted to throw the book at the wall and go to sleep! And really I was in such a low place when I finally quit that I don't think I got any beast activity for a bit.
The bit that worked for me though were the big plan ('I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind) and then recognising that any thoughts or feelings that supported the idea of drinking were my beast brain (AV), my rational brain knew that 'I never drink'. The key thing for me was to never engage with my AV, I have done that long enough to know the outcome of that! It was a relief not to have that argument any more.
It's easier said than done though I know. Keep reading and I'm sure something will click. Just do whatever it takes to stop you from picking up that first drink! x
The bit that worked for me though were the big plan ('I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind) and then recognising that any thoughts or feelings that supported the idea of drinking were my beast brain (AV), my rational brain knew that 'I never drink'. The key thing for me was to never engage with my AV, I have done that long enough to know the outcome of that! It was a relief not to have that argument any more.
It's easier said than done though I know. Keep reading and I'm sure something will click. Just do whatever it takes to stop you from picking up that first drink! x
Spiritual Learner
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 165
Good comments I also liked how the voice is the "Beast", "Addicted Voice", but just reading it didn't help me none- I do realize that the beast is out to kill me through its pleasure and will trick me in anyway shape or form, yeah it don't know that once your dead it is dead and it don't care!
I don't know about AVRT but I do know people who are sober and are staying sober, I know people find different ways to sobriety so remember there is no one only way to sobriety find one that works or use them collectively, but under no circumstance should one put another down! What works for you might not work for me or someone else, stay open-minded about the process!
A.A. worked for me, the meetings, steps, Higher Power, service work, that helped me get out of my head, to clear my head, but no matter what keep asking for help and let people in, keep telling on your voice, it will eventually lose its power! Keep threading!
Good luck and God Bless you!!!
I don't know about AVRT but I do know people who are sober and are staying sober, I know people find different ways to sobriety so remember there is no one only way to sobriety find one that works or use them collectively, but under no circumstance should one put another down! What works for you might not work for me or someone else, stay open-minded about the process!
A.A. worked for me, the meetings, steps, Higher Power, service work, that helped me get out of my head, to clear my head, but no matter what keep asking for help and let people in, keep telling on your voice, it will eventually lose its power! Keep threading!
Good luck and God Bless you!!!
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Abby, I don't follow AVRT, but I do understand the addictive voice part. I had to fully accept that the voice was not me. It was just chatter in my mind, which I could hear and then dismiss. The thoughts were not me and they did not have to control me.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 364
The book The Art of AVRT is not a replacement for Rational Recovery: The New Cure and if you are wanting to quit you should read RR:TNC instead.
You need to use one of AVRT's core techniques here: Addiction Diction. Transpose the words so you separate yourself from your Beast.
Have you made a Big Plan? Once you do you cannot struggle or want to drink since all such desire is the addictive voice. There is no such thing as a dry drunk or relapse anxiety within AVRT since such thoughts and feelings are your Beast's not yours.
Do not enter into a debate with your Beast. It cannot be bargained or reasoned with. Any such debate will weaken your resolve and equate to white knuckling.
If you hear the AV say, “AVRT is good but it's not enough” then it has the upper hand on you. The Beast is a quadriplegic that cannot get its fix without you. As much as it would have you believe you're powerless, it is the Beast who is powerless. Set your confidence at 100% and recognise all self-doubt as AV.
Hypochondriac, the book doesn't leave a stone unturned and in that sense it can feel slow at times. This is why it's good to take the free online crash course first as some people get it right away from that. I didn't, I needed a bit longer and had to read the book twice.
If anyone wants more information, PM me and I'll send you some links.
Today, it was a battle in my mind all day, it was torture. At times I decided I'm NOT drinking, and then the next few minutes I decided I was. I so want to be free of this.
Today, it was torture for my Beast. At times it tried to convince me I am still a drinker. Though it tries to convince me otherwise, I am free of this.
Do not enter into a debate with your Beast. It cannot be bargained or reasoned with. Any such debate will weaken your resolve and equate to white knuckling.
If you hear the AV say, “AVRT is good but it's not enough” then it has the upper hand on you. The Beast is a quadriplegic that cannot get its fix without you. As much as it would have you believe you're powerless, it is the Beast who is powerless. Set your confidence at 100% and recognise all self-doubt as AV.
Hypochondriac, the book doesn't leave a stone unturned and in that sense it can feel slow at times. This is why it's good to take the free online crash course first as some people get it right away from that. I didn't, I needed a bit longer and had to read the book twice.
If anyone wants more information, PM me and I'll send you some links.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 364
Originally Posted by Anna
I had to fully accept that the voice was not me. It was just chatter in my mind, which I could hear and then dismiss. The thoughts were not me and they did not have to control me.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 47
AVRT has been a lifesaver for me. The key - you need to make the Big Plan. Without the Big Plan, i cant imagine it being effective. Once I put that piece in place, it became a state of mind for me and while that addictive voice still rears its head often, its not part of my big plan and the voice is crushed
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Kanamit, I see that the mantle has been passed, and to a very worthy successor. Congratulations and thank you, thank you, thank you, not just for me, a sober BigPlan maker, but for all those who are reading and will read your replies and posts concerning AVRT.
Abby, it worked like this for me. First, I decided to quit. Stop. Finito. Then, I looked for something to latch on to that would let me do the ninja mind trick so that I could beat this, and let me associate the urge with bad bad bad right as soon as it appeared. Standard behaviour modification stuff, right?
I don't know if you have ever been involved in a toxic romantic relationship, one that was going to mess you up forever if you kept on, but I was once. I started to compare this drinking problem of mine with that relationship and found a lot of similarities. This drinking was going to have me lose my health, my family, my job, my house, everything, and it wouldn't matter a bit, just like whatsername. This realization was part one.
Part 2, and this is where the AVRT comes in, was picking up immediately on the urge to drink, and realizing that any thought whatsoever around having a drink was not coming from my rational mind, but from my lizard brain, The Beast, whose only concern was getting buzzed, plastered, hammered, blitzed, bagged.
With AVRT, there is no way that my old addiction can sneak up on me, and start working away at my self confidence and resolve.
I hope this makes sense to you. As soberlicious, Dee and kanamit have said, there is a legacy left by a former member in the Secular Connections forum of discussions concerning just about any question you might have concerning AVRT. And keep posting, too!
Abby, it worked like this for me. First, I decided to quit. Stop. Finito. Then, I looked for something to latch on to that would let me do the ninja mind trick so that I could beat this, and let me associate the urge with bad bad bad right as soon as it appeared. Standard behaviour modification stuff, right?
I don't know if you have ever been involved in a toxic romantic relationship, one that was going to mess you up forever if you kept on, but I was once. I started to compare this drinking problem of mine with that relationship and found a lot of similarities. This drinking was going to have me lose my health, my family, my job, my house, everything, and it wouldn't matter a bit, just like whatsername. This realization was part one.
Part 2, and this is where the AVRT comes in, was picking up immediately on the urge to drink, and realizing that any thought whatsoever around having a drink was not coming from my rational mind, but from my lizard brain, The Beast, whose only concern was getting buzzed, plastered, hammered, blitzed, bagged.
With AVRT, there is no way that my old addiction can sneak up on me, and start working away at my self confidence and resolve.
I hope this makes sense to you. As soberlicious, Dee and kanamit have said, there is a legacy left by a former member in the Secular Connections forum of discussions concerning just about any question you might have concerning AVRT. And keep posting, too!
Recovering
Join Date: May 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,361
Originally Posted by Anna
Abby, I don't follow AVRT, but I do understand the addictive voice part. I had to fully accept that the voice was not me. It was just chatter in my mind, which I could hear and then dismiss. The thoughts were not me and they did not have to control me.
Guest
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 364
Originally Posted by WingsFan13
AVRT has been a lifesaver for me. The key - you need to make the Big Plan. Without the Big Plan, i cant imagine it being effective. Once I put that piece in place, it became a state of mind for me and while that addictive voice still rears its head often, its not part of my big plan and the voice is crushed
Self recovered Self discovered
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,148
Michael, that mistake might be made with other sobriety programs, but not AVRT. Drinking is a conscious choice, and the responsibility for it and its consequences lie solely with the drinker. The Beast doesn't do anything, and can't.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Originally Posted by Michael66
That's an interesting approach (it's the first time I have come across AVRT). Is there any risk though that someone using this approach might not take responsibility for their actions and the hurt they have caused themselves and others?
What you do after you quit is your business.
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