Terminally Unique

In reading any recovery forum, or talking with addicted people, or even looking back at my own past, it becomes readily apparent that one of the key driving forces in addiction is the fear and intolerance of desire. You can see this when people try to hide or run away from anything that might trigger desire long after detox is over, or when they try to get rid of desire.

It is also well known by anyone who has been around "recovery" long enough that a large number of people who leave the safety of rehab drink again, often the same day. There is even a company that has taken advantage of this called "Sober Escorts" -- they will drive you to and from rehab to make sure you don't get drunk on the way there or on the way back home. I think the AA Big Book had it right on this one:

If I were running a rehab, I wouldn't shield people from triggers. There would be 55" TV's on every wall cycling through beer, cigarette, and whiskey commercials 24 hours a day. Maybe a nice bar with a one way wall-size looking glass where the rehab inmates could look in and watch people getting tanked in the evening. I wouldn't give them access to the alcohol, but it would be one big, constant, 28½ day trigger. Sure, some might drink as soon as they got out, no doubt, but a large number would quickly learn that desire can't hurt you.

Dee74

I appreciate that approach worked for you and fits in with your belief system TU... but I had to work up to that.

I was beaten totally mentally and physically when I stopped drinking. I took time out to work on myself - a personal retreat if you will - and one of the conditions of that retreat for me was not to put myself in situations I knew would not be good for me.

I see my recovery journey a lot like other kinds of growth - I started off a fresh new bud, a little fragile... but with a little care, commitment and effort I grew into maturity a fine strong tree.

Dare I say we both did - only you chose to grow in the wild and I chose the greenhouse, maybe?

diff'rent strokes

D

Terminally Unique

Oh, I'm not going to lie. I certainly did want to take a break myself, but I had screwed things up so much that was in a bit of a pickle. I could not afford rent, and I had to move in to someone else's house or it was the streets for me. Well, they let me stay rent free, but they weren't about to interrupt their daily routine on account of me. That meant watching them drink and seeing liquor bottles every day since day one. It drove me a little nuts, but in hindsight, it might have been for the best.

Terminally Unique

I know we have some people on this forum quitting while living with active alcoholics. Desertsong comes to mind, but I know there are others as well. I'd be curious to hear their thoughts on this. It might re-assure people starting out that you can indeed recover regardless of circumstances.

OCDDan

back in the early nineties, i pulled off a two year, four month stretch of sobriety, the whole time i white knuckled it while watching other people drink, they laugh at the stupidest things, after a short time of that, i don't think it was of any benefit to me seeing them drink, it produced anxiety for me which i can imagine doesn't help much with overall health, but everyone is different, what works for one may not work for another. I still like the concept you brougt to lite for me "drinking is not an option"

desertsong

Thanks, TU.

It IS tough trying to remain sober while living with an active alcoholic. The temptation is always around me. If it were up to me, I'd have no alcohol at all in the house. But that's not going to be an option, at least for now.

So I had to remove drinking as an option for me, no matter what is going on around me. You would think that might make things harder, especially while seeing my husband drinking right next to me, but it actually was very liberating to know that I don't drink, I won't drink, and that I will never drink. It's a mindset that took some time to achieve, but I got it. Going to AA, working the 12 steps, and applying some of the principles of AVRT to my recovery, I am about to celebrate 60 days of sobriety on Friday for the first time in a very long time.

I do avoid bars, parties, and other social situations that revolve around drinking though. Honestly, I just don't want to be around it and have found that hanging out with people who have had too much to drink is rather irritating and uncomfortable for me now. But I'm also realistic enough to know that I will never be able to avoid alcohol entirely. It's simply a part of our culture and a part of my everyday life with my husband. It's everywhere I look. But that doesn't mean it has to consume my every waking thought. Once I decided that I no longer drink and will never drink, I don't even think about it anymore other than to be grateful that I gave it up. That probably sounds overly simplistic to some people, and I understand that. I relapsed many, many times because I just couldn't get thoughts of drinking out of my head. The idea of "not drinking" was unfathomable to me. What changed this time? A solid program of recovery, a great support system, and faith in a higher power. I cannot be passive about my sobriety and expect it to just "happen" or I would be "white knuckling" every minute of every day.

I hope this is helpful.

RobbyRobot

I did run a rehab, with others of course as a team effort, and as it turned out we didn't need tv's to keep it real. I sobered up in the rehab myself back in summer of 1981, graduated and moved out, and in '82 thru '84 shared rotation as a live-in counsellor 24/7 (four days duty, then three days off) The whole thing being supervised by a clinical psychologist. Awesome times! A total growth enviroment, with triggers everywhere. Wonderful!

Our program was created with the idea that street people help street people best, and so all our counsellors and staff were recovered alcoholics/drug addicts helping others using applied Gestalt therapy experiences and insights, get off the street and like wise recover. We also could choose to do AA or NA as we did the rehab thing. I chose AA.

There is much to be said for keeping early recovery as real as can be for the real-life enviroment of the person seeking recovery, like TU is suggesting. There is also much to be said for keeping a safe enviroment for folks early in recovery, as Dee is suggesting, so as to protect and nourish the recovery process, without alot of drama and challenges from direct inter-action with alcohol and drug situations. Retreats are indeed an effective process for safeguarding the early foundations of recovery.

Myself, I needed both approaches. The realness of the streets and the protection gained from being part of a fellowship of recovering peers. Such peers can be found in AA, NA, SR, etc... anywhere where folks walk the same collective talk. The streeet is always there, of course.

I'm street. I'm rehab. I'm AA. I'm Gestalt therapy. I'm SR. I'm also presently a student of RR.

I hope this thread works out and becomes valuable. There is much to learn from our collective experiences and differences.

Jeni26

I will second that. My husband drinks to excess, I think he is an alcoholic. He does not despite having many evenings which he ruins and can't remember what went on.
I find it increasingly intolerable but he just serves as I reminder of how I don't want to be.
I go to AA meetings and concentrate on myself and getting myself well. I don't judge him, I've absolutely no basis on which to do so because I was just the same a month or so ago.
He is not an abusive drunk, does not hurt me, he just becomes loud and opinionated and embarrassing.
I hope one day he too will learn the joys of being sober and we will be able to share a new life together on the same path. But he's not ready just yet. I will carry on and wait for him x

Challenged1

I do not live with an active alcoholic TU...however the circumstances which I live are anything but warm and comfy. Like you, I got myself in a pinch and couldn't afford the rent and therefore am at the mercy of a total control freak aka my bf along with his partner in crime, his son. There is so much planning and scheming, wispering and secrets, silence when I walk into the room, paranoia, lock boxes opening and closing several times throughout the day, cell phones vibrating every five minutes...you can see where I'm going with this.
All this "private" activity by the superior one that gave me the ultimatum to never drink again or be homeless. Okay fine...I rather enjoy sobriety and I have found my own reasons to eliminate alcohol from my life. The real challenge is learning to shut out what is going on around me and accept that I have no say and that "it is none of my business"...and doing this with a clear sober mind. Knowing that the ultimatum was not a genuine concern, but another strong hold on me keeping me issolated from anyone and everyone that has a drink, alcoholic or not. Funny thing is that the only times I think about a glass of wine is when I'm here, at home with the almighty one, the non drinker with the vibrating phone rattling and the sons truck ripping in and out of the driveway every 20 minutes.
I am in expedited survival mode, I will not drink, I need a clear mind, I need to get the hell out of here.
P.S~He said I could never do it...Day 36

Terminally Unique

Prove him wrong.

soberbythesea

I can see your point TU. I do think this approach has some value.

To take a personal example, for me there is still alcohol in my home and probably always will be -- my husband still drinks, and we have a huge wine collection. I never really thought of asking him to get rid of it -- first of all, I don't think he would agree to do so, but secondly, there is alcohol everywhere anyway. If I didn't have it in my home, there is a liquor store within a 10-minute walk of my house, as well as more than one bar.

Historically, the alcohol in my home hasn't been a problem for me; I was successfully sober for 8 months in this situation, and when I eventually relapsed, I was out of the country on a trip.

I prefer to work more on my strength, commitment, and tools to remain sober, and not focus so much on changing my outer environment. That said, there ARE a limited number of situations I do think it's probably best I stay away from completely for now (see my thread about winery tours.)

Sapling

I've been in two rehabs. One was detox only and I was there for a week....Totally closed in....We had to smoke in a caged in area outside. I didn't stay for the 28 day program and white knuckled my way through 10 months....I was miserable....I was miserable when I drank but it was better than that "sobriety". I drank again for about 6 years and almost drank myself to death. This time I went into a rehab with no walls. You could walk off campus after 2 weeks and go where you wanted as long as you signed out.
I was able to work a deal with my councelor to be able to attend some AA meetings at 6 in the morning with a lady that invited me and had a car there. It was the only place I ever went when I was there. I spent a lot of time studying the Big Book...Working on step related exercises they gave us and just thinking and praying. The place would be empty at certain times and I liked that. I made friends with a guy that re-uped twice for a 90 day stay...He got out while I was there and drank on the way home. I had gone to my 6'oclock meeting with this lady the morning after he left and he was there getting a white chip. That actually scared me. I ended up leaving early after two weeks and threw myself into the AA program..2 to 3 meetings a day minimum...Grabbed a sponsor my second day out and got busy. I have 10 months last week and this time I see what it's like to be sober. Not fighting anything....Enjoying it. They invited me to a 6 month reunion for our group of about 40 people....Including myself there were four of us there. I don't knock rehab...It introduced me to AA...That saved my life. This guy that left after 90 days could have gone off campus and drank anytime he wanted to...Some people did. I don't know...I see a lot of people come and go in my homegroup...It's like a bus station...But if you want this thing to work...No matter what way you do it.....You better get ready to roll your sleeves up and put some effort into it. That's the only way that I've seen that works.

Mark75

My wife has her one tall white wine spritzer each night before bed. She's not alcoholic. She sure as HELL wasn't going to stop her evening ritual just because I screwed the pooch.

How self centered I was to resent her for that, LOL.

But that is my issue... Cravings, self pity, all that are gone. Billboards, commercials, other people enjoying their alcoholic beverages, all made me crazy at first... now I hardly notice, except sometimes That resentment thing... last night at a dinner meeting, the speaker had a Sam Adams... well, until dinner came, it was hard to not notice. But no craving or self pity, just a fleeting wistfulness... Funny thing is, I don't think he even finished it over the course of two hours!!

I don't know TU. I don't think that having it in your face in the first few days or weeks, constantly is gonna be particularly helpful. Just as I don't think shielding one's self from reality is that good of an idea either.

Perhaps, at a rehab, a workshop session, or sessions... get those triggers out there... what do they mean to us, how do we process it and move on? Not everyone has the cognitive skills necessary, at first, to handle it... some do, sure... but some don't.

It took some experience for me to realize that good times can be had, sans alcohol, and in fact those good times could and were even better... I had to see it to believe it. In rehab I thought my life was over.

Terminally Unique

@OCDDan:

I was 'white knuckling' it initially as well. In spite of all the things that went down, completely broke, no job, etc, I was still trying to stop tentatively to 'see how it goes'. In hindsight, I can see that in the back of my mind, I was only going to stop just long enough to get a job, get back on my feet, drop my tolerance back to baseline, and then get back to the old routine. I lasted about a month with that plan.

When I realized that wasn't going to work, and decided to be done with it no matter what, I still struggled for a few months. I know that presumably, once the detox is over, there should be no physical craving, and be all mental, but that wasn't the case for me. The desire really did feel like a physical reaction, like shocks, and I could feel the tug to just grab one of the bottles.

Seeing open alcohol bottles, glasses of wine, beer, and bottles of scotch every day was not pleasant, but eventually I figured out how to not struggle, and it became more like "good morning, open bottles of booze from last night's hurrah". Four and a half months in or so, the Beast (addictive desire) had gotten pretty quiet, barely a grunt, and I had gotten a little cocky, figured it was down for the count. Lo and behold, one day I see a bottle of my favorite stuff, and I started salivating like one of Pavlov's dogs.

It really caught me off guard, and I held that bottle in my hands for a while before putting it down, but I learned not to assume the Beast would give up or die too easily. These days, it barely stirs, and while they once did, TV images, or even bottles, don't usually do much. If am at a party with an open bar, though, I will sometimes order a nice shot of scotch, bring it up to my nose, and very slowly take in the smell, just to see if my old friend the Beast is still alive.

Smell is the sense most strongly linked to memory and emotion, because the olfactory bulb is part of the limbic system, and this usually does the trick. The Beast gets excited, and I let the SOB come out and play for a bit, let it reminisce about the old days. I then shift back into my right mind, drive the Beast into the ground, and get on with the business of socializing. I've done it enough times where I can switch back and forth between the Beast mind and my mind at will, and I still get a kick out of this whenever I do it.

YMMV.

RobbyRobot

Okay.

Am I to understand you actually do the thing with the Scotch? Or is it more like a thought-experiment?

The thing about kicking the Beast back into the ground is awesome, of course, fwiw.

eJoshua

I agree with this -- to an extent. I was more like Dee, I had to work my way up to being around alcohol.

Fwiw, in my many failed attempts at sobriety I was living with an active alcoholic. I couldn't recover in that environment so I moved. I think it's absolutely possible to get sober while living with an active alcoholic, so there is hope for the person in recovery with an alcoholic spouse, for example; however I would argue that it would be a good idea to get out of that environment if it is a possibility.

I think it's important to point out that if you are sheltering yourself from "triggers", or whatever, that does not make your sobriety any less valid. I felt a need to test myself for a long time to prove that I was recovered, but this testing invariably led to relapse for me. In my opinion, removing yourself from triggers can be a prudent move for a time.

Terminally Unique

Yes, I actually do this, Robby. I take the scotch glass up to my nose, take in the vapors, and imagine what it would taste like and feel like. Since smell is so closely tied to memory and emotion, it really doesn't take very much to bring those old memories and feelings back. Like a reflex, the Beast will automatically respond to such a strong stimulus, especially if I am actively encouraging it.

I've done this enough times where I can easily shift back and forth between what the Beast feels towards alcohol and what I feel at will. Under normal circumstances, such as the one that Mark75 described, this shift is automatic for me, almost like a reflex. Subjectively, it is not too different from Boleo's description of seeing a skull and crossbones on liquor bottles. They actually do this 'live fire' exercise in the in-person AVRT course, BTW.

desertsong

What you suggested in your first post, TU, reminds me of something called "systematic desensitization" or "flooding." I don't know a LOT about psychology, but I do remember reading about this in college when I took a few psych courses.

Systematic desensitization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It seems to be used more with phobias/fears/anxiety and teaches people how to calm themselves/relax when they're exposed to the things they fear most. I guess you could apply these techniques to alcoholism in a controlled environment, I don't know. Interesting.

RobbyRobot

Okay.

If I did the same ritual, I would see myself drinking the drink sooner or later, simply because I would have already seen myself awakening the Beast by playing with getting the Beast to come out to play, okay?

Intentionally playing with the Beast, for nothing more then to just kick it back down, for me anyways, would be me playing with my ego to satisfy my selfish desires to escape the boring reality of living sans-alcohol. My life is anything but boring, and kicking the Beast down is a joyous thing, but to call it out simply to kick it down, will never be something I will do.

I see dangers in your playtime with your Beast, and so I may as well just get that out there. You know I respect you, TU.



I've learned playing with myself over my desires to drink (my Beast) is a game that sooner or later I always lost. Always. So, I don't play like that anymore. That's me though.

I understand what you're doing, I'm saying it's not for me. I don't need the added drama to kick my Beast down.

Awesome thread.

Sapling

You're like the Bill Wilson of AVRT here TU...Maybe you can do that...But I don't think it's a great idea for the newcomers forum.