Tobo

A question to discuss about the progression of alcoholism during abstinence. In AA they say the disease progresses even though your not drinking. Their cliche is "John Barleycorn is doing pushup waiting for you to drink." This is insuinuating that your drinking will be worse upon return. I do understand and pretty much agree that alcoholism is progressive ( even though I do know people who have drank less as they aged, myself included).

But my question is this: is this notion that the disease progresses during abstaining the truth or is it pretty much a self fulfilling prophecy that you create because AA has impressed that upon you? Meaning that bc you feel so guilty bc you are drinking and no it's wrong that you just full out relapse with no effor given to moderating. You e learned you can't control it so you just go full tilt.

I hope not to offend anyone with this question. My intentions are not to start a AA debate. I do attend AA but haven't fully given myself to the program. This is something I've been pondering and wanted different views on it.

sugarbear1

I can speak for me, mine progressed. I had 25 years messing with that attempting to moderate, each time I quit then started again, it was worse than before.

I also know of people who didn't make it alive after going back out, theirs progressed very quickly and they couldn't handle it. Others who made it back had testimony like mine.

hypochondriac

I'm not an authority here but I think that sounds like a pretty good analogy for how the brain responds to alcohol. I read this somewhere, possibly on here... that the brain is changed by drinking, permanently, so that even after years of abstinence, when you start drinking again you very quickly get back to where you were when you stopped. And if you get there so much quicker than before it stands to reason that you will end up worse than before. I think the point is that the brain/body remembers how to process large quantities of alcohol. Hence the concept that you do not recover/are cured. Thanks for posting that, it's the first time that something from AA has made sense to me

OCDDan

From my experience i'd say yes it does progress, it did very quickly for me, a few drinks wouldn't do much for me after stopping five months and returning to drink. yes, i believe it does progress, but i will say i never believed it before.

Dee74

I know my drinking progressed over 20 years, from binge drinker to all day everyday drinker.

In my drinking career, I never stopped long enough to really test out the 'disease progressing while not drinking' idea, but others here will chime in with their stories about that, and that's proof enough for me, Tobo.

D

Tobo

Good points about the brain hypochondriac. I would totally agree.

desertsong

That makes a lot of sense to me. I call my alcoholic mind the "crazy sister living in the attic." She's always there, even when I'm sober. The last time I relapsed, I went back to where I was and WORSE in a much shorter period of time (less than a week). It would definitely explain why every relapse is worse than the one before it, and why some people who go out never make it back in. Very, very scary thought, but sobering (pun intended) too.

Tobo

It is weird though. Like my father who many said was an alcoholic drinks very moderately now. I obviously don't know what goes on in his mind, he may be jonesing for it. Or he may be hiding his drinking. But people in AA would use the answer that he wasn't true lot alcoholic then.

Squizz

In my own circumstance, yes the "disease" does progress. It has always gotten worse for me, every time I've picked up. I don't think people are making this up. I think it is 100% true. Some people may be able to moderate after a period of not drinking, but that's never been the case with me.

Squizz

Well nobody can say for certain what exactly a "true" alcoholic is. It's different on a person-to-person basis. I know people who've been able to moderate after being seriously hardcore drinkers.

Like I said earlier though, that's never been the case with me.

sugarbear1

If the brain wants what it used to have, but the body can't tolerate it, then there could be dire consequences.

scrambled2012

a few things.
1) looking at the effect of alcohol like the effect of any drug, we expect the thing called "tolerance" to be developed quite a bit before some reaches the point of quitting. That is, heavy users end up going to AA or having issues, not every light users, so aspects of tolerance/dependence are expected.

much of drug tolerance results from microscopic changes in the brain. specifically, the receptors on brain cells that absorb the abused drug can increase in number. also, the system develops an opposing reaction to the drug in question. this is the release of substances in the brain that have an effect opposite the drug. interestingly enough, a creature or person can become classically conditioned to have this opposing response from the environmental cues associated with the drug, before the drug is actually taken. example: always taking heroin in the same room for a year, tolerance builds up, and dosage is increased....take the person to a different room one day and inject this new level of heroin, and an overdose results....why? no opposing response triggered by the environmental cues.

anyway point is that aspects of tolerance are biologically based. now, cross reference this with what some call "muscle memory." thats the idea that two people, equally fat and out of shape, yet 10 years ago one used to be very fit from moving furniture or something. that person who used to be fit, will develop a muscle response more rapidly if both start to work out, then the individual who never had muscles of this kind before.

in the same way, the aspects of tolerance developed by the brain can get back to exactly where they used to be in a very short time--lets say two weeks--after a 10 period of abstinence. It might have taken 10 years to build up that level of tolerance (and the consequent high levels of drinking) the "first time," but after 10 years of not drinking it only takes two weeks to get to the same level you would have been at before.

now another question is will it be "worse" then the tolerance that brought you to give up drinking the first time? to this question i tend to think "no," BUT, it is important to note the thing that some call "kindling." If I understand this thing correctly (and it does describe my experiences), each time a person gets "sucked" into a period of alcohol use, that period of use lasts longer and it is that much more difficult to break out (become abstinent again). It is possible that upon reaching your previous (high) level of tolerance (and drinking), your are psychologically more stuck in the abusive rut, so to speak, and that at this point tolerance only continues to grow at a normal rate (until the body breaks down and tolerance ceases all together, but thats a different story.

wow. long winded. its an interesting phenomena however. In short, there is truth to what the good folks are saying.

Sapling

I have seen it in action...People leaving after a few years and coming back..Not once have I heard anyone say it was better this time...And I sure don't want to find out for myself...There's enough people to take that test for me.

Terminally Unique

I don't know about this "push-ups" business, but there is a phenomenon known as kindling in alcohol withdrawal. Over time, the withdrawals usually get worse.

• Kindling in Alcohol Withdrawal (Google Docs)
  
  
• Kindling in Alcohol Withdrawal (PDF)

langkah

What's kind of cool is since AA's been around members have had the opportunity to observe the pattern of results produced by what people do or not do, and learned what generally to expect. What you're hearing in much of the commonly repeated pitch talk is based on what's been repeatedly observed by many to be true for quite a while.

Alcoholism goes back more than 5,000 years, is mentioned in the oldest narrative yet found. The patterns that AAs have observed and comment on are eons old, not ones produced recently by AA and then inflicted on the unsuspecting for nefarious purposes. You really don't want to shoot the messenger regarding information on alcoholism you may find uncomfortable. Very little of it's good news and you are better off knowing than remaining in the dark. Expect to be uncomfortable a lot.

Your question carries no offense because it's not about AA at all, but about what happens when an alcoholic doesn't drink for a while and then drinks again. Do they soon return to getting drunk again instead of being all healed up and suddenly able to control their drinking and if their condition is likely to have gotten worse? Alcoholics stop often and then drink again and return to getting drunk, and if it's been a while their sensitivity to alcohol is higher than before so they cannot drink the amounts they used to (like your friends). True in Sumerian times, Dark Age, Victorian Era, and today.

Because our condition is as it always has been.

The earliest story ever yet found mentions drunks vomiting in the local taverns and causing all sorts of problems for people. I can personally vouch for that not changing much at all.

least

I was sober twenty years until deciding to have "a glass of wine in the afternoon". And within nine months or so was completely hooked.

The last (and I do mean 'the last') time I relapsed I had almost six months sober and drank for two days. Was sicker from that than I'd ever been. Thought I would die. Wanted to die to stop the misery and sickness and self hatred.

I've had varying sober spells and each time I drank again I felt worse and drank at my old level or more. I finally learned tho and no longer need to put my hand on the stove to see if it's hot...

michelle01

Interesting question. I'm not in AA but after two years sober, this is one of the things that keeps me from drinking again - I'm pretty sure it'd be more harmful than it was before. Based on what I've seen in others unfortunately since I started in recovery a few years ago, I think there's an overall tendency to deteriorate.

LosingmyMisery

For me it was true. In early recovery, I was abstinent and picked up and was swept away in a whirlwind of insanity. I hated the analogy of your disease doing push ups out in the parking lot, but for me it was true. I'm glad I was able to survive it. The good news, I don't drink anymore. As long as I don't drink it isn't a threat.

Sapling

That's right...If you don't ever have a drink...You'll never need a drink again. It's the first one that will kill you.

OCDDan

that was a good read about withdrawals, The thing I didn't get from that article is how long before you start withdrawing?