desertsong

I see this a lot too. I guess they clap because the person came back instead of staying out there, but I get the point. In my HG, two people have relapsed in the last couple of weeks but they came back and are trying again. People are being supportive and encouraging of them and welcoming them back but while the support and encouragement helps me, it also scares me. It's like giving someone a pass ... we can go back out and drink and whenever we're ready to come back, AA will be there. I dunno ... this isn't about anyone but me and I have such a junk show going on in my head right now. Obviously I'm not doing what I need to do ... but I don't know what it is that I need to do right now ... today.

Sapling

They're never going to give up on you in the rooms...Never...You might run out of people to sponsor you...People think half measures will get you half results...They don't. They get you nothing...Working the 12 steps is the program of recovery...Some people just don't get that...I don't know why I got it...Maybe it has to do with the help I asked for every day...I don't think I could have done them alone...And I don't think I did.....

desertsong

Half measures have always failed me ... the result was nil. I've been looking for an easier, softer way ... it doesn't exist. Reality is here ... time to deal with it.

Sapling

The steps are the easier, softer way...

desertsong

Sapling, you kick my butt. lol Thank you. You tell it like it is. I'm a stubborn, willful alkie who can rationalize my way out of anything but you (and TU) don't let me do it. Bless you. Got some work to do, that is for sure.

Sapling

No....Is there such a thing?

desertsong

lol Ya think?

Terminally Unique

People fail to realize that there is a part of them that is thinking along these very same lines. They go in, out, in, out, never realizing what is driving their behavior. I pointed out some double meanings in some slogans already. There are actually double meanings, with embedded hidden excuses for more drinking, in almost all of the slogans, though, with few exceptions. As an exercise, try going through the usual slogans and see if you can discover these hidden excuses.

It's not because I'm unusually clever, desertsong. My chosen method of recovery literally forces an understanding and a hyper-awareness of the addictive mentality. First, it starts out only internally, but in due time, this awareness expands outwardly. I literally cannot shut it off at this point, and I can see the hidden excuses to drink in people's posts as I read them.

desertsong

I'm getting there too, TU. Slowly. I can rationalize anything to a place where I allow myself to drink. I'm also starting to recognize that type of thinking when I hear people talk in the rooms ... I felt this, I felt that, I needed this, I needed that ... so I drank. What an education I'm getting. I am getting a lot out of AA but I'm also getting more into AVRT now. Both make total sense to me and while some don't think so, they really can co-exist. Whatever it takes to get me and keep me sober.

Sapling

I haven't looked into RR or AVRT...TU...I think it's great it works for people...Anything that works is fine with me...I'm happy with what I'm doing and it's becoming more of a part of me the more I practice it....And I'll never be perfect at it..Which is good...Because I'd have nothing left to practice for if I was..I'm curious about how RR deals with charactor defects...Which I had an abundance of...And I still have to work on when they pop up...Does it have anything in the program that works on that TU? Anything for dealing with the wreckage of your past?

desertsong

Hmmm ... I'd be interested in hearing about that too, TU. All of the AA's say that Step 4 is the "life changing step." If you don't do that in Rational Recovery, what do you do instead?

Terminally Unique

AVRT has no formal outline for dealing with your screw-ups, but it kind of forces you to see them for what they are by default. AVRT will strip you of all excuses and justifications for your past drinking, and restores the moral dimension to addiction and recovery, effectively re-booting your moral conscience, which was 'asleep' during addiction. Within the paradigm, drinking, in and of itself, is morally wrong. I'm not speaking of the stupid, animal behavior while drunk, but the immoral act of drinking with knowledge of the harm drinking has already incurred. There is no disease, no underlying issues, and no coping or dealing to hide behind, either.

Once you 'pop out' of your addiction along these lines, you'll never look at things the same way again. When people ask you why you drank so much, for example, you literally have to tell them "because I loved to drink more than anything else, and I kept it up knowing it was dead wrong for me to do so." AVRT helps you vanquish an enemy (The Beast), but it also reminds you that you were yourself an enemy to others, and bear the guilt of your own vanquished enemy. It hits you like a ton of bricks at first, but unless you're a certifiable sociopath, it will bring about the requisite changes.

Sapling

Interesting...I don't know...Somehow I sleep better knowing I've cleaned my side of the street....But like I said...Anything that removes alcohol and the destruction that comes with it from you life is fine with me.....Plus I was spritually broken....I feel better knowing that was something that could be fixed...A peace I was really missing in my life. I just like to see people not drink...Any way...Too many die from it.

Terminally Unique

I do as well, Sapling. AVRT doesn't provide a formal outline for restitution or 'amends', but by restoring the moral axis to addiction and recovery, it makes it a little difficult, if not impossible, not to take personal responsibility for all of your past destruction. You can't very well tell your husband or wife "the Beast made me do it, honey" without sounding insane, and they'll probably hold you accountable for all the trouble you caused.

Yes, everything wrong at home will be your fault, and you'll probably have to apologize for a long while. How one actually goes about fixing things and their life is left up to the individual, however. Some return to church after having a good falling out with G-d, for example, but that's not a requirement. Indeed, an atheist would probably have no such inclination.

Sapling

Do you think people ever go back out from not fixing things properly..?

Terminally Unique

I'm sure some people go back to drinking, Sapling, but not for that reason. Done right, AVRT-style recovery is unconditional -- for better or for worse. I will say this, though, having 'cheated' (copped out, really) and tried a temporary half-assed quit the first time around to 'see how it goes'. While it didn't last very long, when I did drink again, it just felt so wrong. It ruins your drinking, and after a few days I just said "OK, time to do things the right way," and that was that.

Sapling

I've heard that about AA too...How it ruins your drinking...Something about a head full of AA and a belly full of booze...The reason I asked....Is I've heard of people going back out in AA from shortcutting steps...Holding back on their fourth step..Or ninth step...Stuff that just eats them up inside till they drink..Rigorous honesty you know...

Elisabeth888

I have to add something because a good friend of mine just said "I know what I need to do" to me this morning and she is saying this and not doing anything right now. She isn't drinking but she is making 1, maybe 2 meetings a week because she is 'busy'.

I had to be honest with her and tell her that she needs to be working the steps with her sponsor, not farting around and missing meetings or she is going to get drunk. I know because that is what I did and that is what she did 3 months ago also.

SO MANY people at our group are going out right now. People with 5, 10 years even.

Sapling

It takes work...At least half the amount of work you put into drinking..Maybe less..But it takes action...No other way around it..

seanie1888

nGreat thread and incite folks