Judged by AA Extremists? Have to say it
Guest
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 609
I'm in treatment for both depression/anxiety and addiction, have had treatment in wards, I'm dual diagnosis as well. I felt much the same way as you when I first started looking into AA. However, ultimately I just decided to let the mental health professionals deal with that side of things, and let the addiction experts deal with the addiction issues. I'm an addict, I do have treatment - counselling and anti depressant - for mental health issues as well. But I didn't want to begin using my mental health problems as an excuse for my drinking. Maybe that's just me. But knowing me, that's what I would do, and start the whole cycle over again.
I think that AA do a great job at what they do - help people with addiction - however there are some things that they may not be equipped to deal with, such as mental health diagnoses. That doesn't mean that AA is no value to someone with a dual diagnosis. If I were still attending AA meetings though, I just don't think I'd raise my mental health diagnoses in that setting, my philosophy is that is for my doctor, specialist and professional counsellors to take care of. Maybe others have a different take, or that may seem very black and white to them, but that's the approach that seems to have worked best for me so far in recovery.
Neither my addiction issues or other diagnoses define who I am as an individual, I have moved past that in recovery and resolved my own issues about the 'stigma'. I am first and foremost a creation of my Maker, not a walking case file/study.
I think that AA do a great job at what they do - help people with addiction - however there are some things that they may not be equipped to deal with, such as mental health diagnoses. That doesn't mean that AA is no value to someone with a dual diagnosis. If I were still attending AA meetings though, I just don't think I'd raise my mental health diagnoses in that setting, my philosophy is that is for my doctor, specialist and professional counsellors to take care of. Maybe others have a different take, or that may seem very black and white to them, but that's the approach that seems to have worked best for me so far in recovery.
Neither my addiction issues or other diagnoses define who I am as an individual, I have moved past that in recovery and resolved my own issues about the 'stigma'. I am first and foremost a creation of my Maker, not a walking case file/study.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
I recently said to a sponsee who was worried about what others people would think about her ..... "If you think people are going to judge you, you're right. Get used to it. The only thing that matters is if YOU are ok with YOU." Getting to that point can be difficult.
Just remember, YOU are the only person that can define yourself.
For every person who wants to tell you your recovery is wrong, there are many, many more that are proud of you for your sober time and hard work.
Keep on doing what you're doing.
Just remember, YOU are the only person that can define yourself.
For every person who wants to tell you your recovery is wrong, there are many, many more that are proud of you for your sober time and hard work.
Keep on doing what you're doing.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Trenches, Texas
Posts: 778
Originally Posted by keithj 
You're correct, know one has the 'power' to tell you what to do and make it stick,
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by keithj
I think you'll find all kinds of people attending AA meetings, Innerchild. You're correct, know one has the 'power' to tell you what to do and make it stick, but a lot of people are going to express their opinions to you in a public place.
I encourage you to discriminate between those opinions and the actual content of the program of AA contained in the Big Book. As regards medications, the BB encourages us to seek outside, expert guidance on those issues. There is also an AA pamphlet that deals directly with AA's view on medications.
One of the great things about how AA's program is presented, is the respect it affords the newcomer. The whole program is presented in the BB in the form of 'Here is what we have done, here is what we have found." It's not a 'here is what you have to do' kind of program. You can decide for yourself if you are an alcoholic like the kind described in the BB. A sponsor can help with this. Then and only then, you can decide if you want, or need, to do what we have done to recover.
I encourage you to discriminate between those opinions and the actual content of the program of AA contained in the Big Book. As regards medications, the BB encourages us to seek outside, expert guidance on those issues. There is also an AA pamphlet that deals directly with AA's view on medications.
One of the great things about how AA's program is presented, is the respect it affords the newcomer. The whole program is presented in the BB in the form of 'Here is what we have done, here is what we have found." It's not a 'here is what you have to do' kind of program. You can decide for yourself if you are an alcoholic like the kind described in the BB. A sponsor can help with this. Then and only then, you can decide if you want, or need, to do what we have done to recover.
meeting. I was told that nothing mattered but attendance at the meetings. Nothing else could keep me sober. I was already leery of AA and not impressed. I did not return.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
Hey, I'm pretty sure I didn't go in with an open mind ...... I tried but it was hit or miss.
David - the meeting you went to doesn't sound like any meeting I've been to around here (I'm in the KC area as well). I hope you check out some other meetings, may be you'll find one you like and if you don't, that's cool too.
In my experience, most AAs don't believe that meetings attendance (alone) will keep you sober although I'm sure some out there might say that. I'm sorry you had that experience.
David - the meeting you went to doesn't sound like any meeting I've been to around here (I'm in the KC area as well). I hope you check out some other meetings, may be you'll find one you like and if you don't, that's cool too.
In my experience, most AAs don't believe that meetings attendance (alone) will keep you sober although I'm sure some out there might say that. I'm sorry you had that experience.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by PaperDolls
In my experience, most AAs don't believe that meetings attendance (alone) will keep you sober although I'm sure some out there might say that. I'm sorry you had that experience.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canada. About as far south as you can get
Posts: 4,768
Originally Posted by davidf938
I was already leery of AA and not impressed. I did not return.
David, my disease often reared it's ugly head in a decision best described as "I'll show you, I'll kill me !!".
Perhaps if you gave it another try things would be different .....
All the best.
Bob
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,550
What about a little rationing, like they do with food in war time? Why not be a little discriminating about what you disclose to these people? Is there any need to tell them the medications you're taking? You now know what they'll say. If they ask about that you can give them your doctor's name and suggest they get in touch with him/her if they want to pry into that or assist in your medical treatment. Maybe they'd like to contact your clergyman to find out more about your sins. So consider treating them like children. Tell them only what's good for them and stuff you think they can handle intelligently. At the end of the day this may be very little stuff, which lessens your responsibility.
Seriously, don't buy into it! They're trying to set you up for an ego trip of their own.
W.
Seriously, don't buy into it! They're trying to set you up for an ego trip of their own.
W.
Its_me_jen
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Salina, Ks
Posts: 8,547
Early in my recovery (about 3 months) I had someone tell me I had relapsed because of a prescribed medication I had taken, as prescribed. She sort of acted as if I had been smoking crack or something.
My response ... "May be for your recovery that's a relapse, and I respect that. I know I've done the right thing. My recovery is mine."
Continue to do what's right for you.
My response ... "May be for your recovery that's a relapse, and I respect that. I know I've done the right thing. My recovery is mine."
Continue to do what's right for you.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,954
Originally Posted by Innerchild
...and the support group for dual diagnosis depression and addiction I just started to attend are helpful. I like this group because we are able to speak about mental illness, struggles with addiction and receive feedback from other members of the group
However I do attend a weekly open AA meeting where, as I understand it, one needs not to infinity oneself as an alcoholic because the meeting is open to non-alcoholics and alcoholics alike. That would take care of the not being labeled concerns you have. I go to AA in part for making connections with other dual-diagnosis peeps. Its the meeting after the meeting that I enjoy most. We always have a lot to talk about
.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: in the shadow of the rockies
Posts: 338
wow- this is sad to hear. I do more NA than AA but i have NEVER [16 years of regular meetings] witnessed what you are describing . In fact, my experience is the exact opposite : many times , ppl have come in and , in a short time, they want to get off prescribed meds. The groups i have been around have ALWAYS said that the program cannot and should not be a substitute for a doctor's diagnosis and treatment.
Yes, some of my NA sponsees have eventually reduced or eliminated their psych meds - but only after many months of recovery and only after consultation w/ docs/counselors . And some have had to go back to meds. So what?
Man- I am livid that you experienced that behavior! If any other parts of the program resonate with you I hope that you will try some other meetings. There is a vast network of folk unencumbered by some ego centric crap- who are living the Compassion..,There is no sense in going to meetings that have forgotten some of our most important traditions: Primary Purpose and Principles before Personalities.
sheesh -
hugs
Yes, some of my NA sponsees have eventually reduced or eliminated their psych meds - but only after many months of recovery and only after consultation w/ docs/counselors . And some have had to go back to meds. So what?
Man- I am livid that you experienced that behavior! If any other parts of the program resonate with you I hope that you will try some other meetings. There is a vast network of folk unencumbered by some ego centric crap- who are living the Compassion..,There is no sense in going to meetings that have forgotten some of our most important traditions: Primary Purpose and Principles before Personalities.
sheesh -
hugs
Member
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Albany NY
Posts: 1,212
I'm truly sorry that happened to you, Innerchild. Trust me when I say that this is not the opinion of all AAer's.
I haven't seen what you describe personally, but on these forum boards, I have seen it described as happening to others and they post about it. That, to me, is stepping way beyond the bounds of our purpose in working with the newcomer.
Thank you for posting this. I promise to you that if I see it happening, I know exactly what to do about it.
Please continue doing what you are doing....well done!
I haven't seen what you describe personally, but on these forum boards, I have seen it described as happening to others and they post about it. That, to me, is stepping way beyond the bounds of our purpose in working with the newcomer.
Thank you for posting this. I promise to you that if I see it happening, I know exactly what to do about it.
Please continue doing what you are doing....well done!
once in a . . .
Join Date: May 2004
Location: looking in / looking out
Posts: 1,214
I have fought depression for as long as I can remember. I was diagnosed as Bi-PolarII at 23yo. I got sober at 34yo. I’m 54yo now. Over the years, I’ve had a lot of people with the unmitigated gall, come up to me and tell me that 1) I’m “not really” bi-polar (30 yrs of doctors + they’re all wrong!) and 2) if I only worked the program correctly (meaning with THEM as my sponsor) I wouldn’t need to take medication.
(I wonder if they can also cure my diabetes?)
I find that saying “Thank you. I’ll let my doctor know of your recommendations.” And then walking away, works wonderfully. *evil grin*
I’ve learned to NOT share certain things in meetings – my diagnosis, my meds, my psychiatrist. That’s what my friends are for (sharing). I’ve also learned to NOT share those things with people I don’t know very well yet – ie: people who come up to me after meetings – no matter HOW nice they may seem.
BTW:
Some of us have diabetes because our pancreas doesn’t work quite right. We need medication to help.
Some of us have depression/anxiety/etc because our brain doesn’t work quite right. We need medication to help.
Both are organs we have no control over. (‘Thoughts’ are NOT the brain/the organ itself.)
Have also had people question how I ‘introduce’ myself. I used to struggle to explain myself. Now, when asked Why do you say ______? I answer "Because.” I don’t let myself be drawn into that conversation. It’s none of their business. If people think I’m rude, I seriously don’t care. I’m sober and what other people think is none of MY business.
I feel sorry for people who have sat thru an entire meeting, waiting for their chance to demand of me: ‘WHY did you say “I’m Blue, I’m only here for the coffee.!”’ It’s sad that that’s all they got out of a perfectly good hour of recovery.
Some people forget (or just don’t know) what AA *IS*. Judging others is NOT what it’s about.
Walk away from them.
Blue
(I wonder if they can also cure my diabetes?)
I find that saying “Thank you. I’ll let my doctor know of your recommendations.” And then walking away, works wonderfully. *evil grin*
I’ve learned to NOT share certain things in meetings – my diagnosis, my meds, my psychiatrist. That’s what my friends are for (sharing). I’ve also learned to NOT share those things with people I don’t know very well yet – ie: people who come up to me after meetings – no matter HOW nice they may seem.
BTW:
Some of us have diabetes because our pancreas doesn’t work quite right. We need medication to help.
Some of us have depression/anxiety/etc because our brain doesn’t work quite right. We need medication to help.
Both are organs we have no control over. (‘Thoughts’ are NOT the brain/the organ itself.)
Have also had people question how I ‘introduce’ myself. I used to struggle to explain myself. Now, when asked Why do you say ______? I answer "Because.” I don’t let myself be drawn into that conversation. It’s none of their business. If people think I’m rude, I seriously don’t care. I’m sober and what other people think is none of MY business.
I feel sorry for people who have sat thru an entire meeting, waiting for their chance to demand of me: ‘WHY did you say “I’m Blue, I’m only here for the coffee.!”’ It’s sad that that’s all they got out of a perfectly good hour of recovery.
Some people forget (or just don’t know) what AA *IS*. Judging others is NOT what it’s about.
Walk away from them.
Blue
Grateful AA member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the middle of the woods, NJ
Posts: 567
After work, I was a little afraid to revisit this threat I was expecting some verbal backlash lol However, you all gave me some great advice and very interesting feedback on this matter. I am glad I am not the only one who feels this way. What is most important is what works for us personally as we are all different but fighting similar battles. We all need to worry about ourselves more and less about what everyone else is doing. I will not be taking benzos long term because they are dangerous but I do not need to defend myself do I. Currently, I am not self medicating with alcohol and that what counts for me. I was always anti pills and drugs but the antidepressant is helping. I do not want to end up in another Crisis Unit or dead. If I believe I am doing better thats what counts not some "12 stepper nazi" as someone posted before. Sorry I forgot who it was but it was very funny. Thanks guys for your openness.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Here is something that seems to be often forgotten. AA, and most other 12 steps are ANONYMOUS. Meaning you are there for one purpose only, to address the particular addiction and work the steps. You don't owe anyone personal information concerning any other aspect of your life.
Some people might say that is "hiding" things, but I think it's just good common sense. When I share at meetings, there is no reason for me to share specific personal info. What other illnesses I have or what I may be doing for them. I am NOT in that meeting to spill my guts.
I think that overly detailed and personal shares actually distract from the purpose of the meetings. Telling about general issues and feelings, good. Going into detail over relationships, jobs, meds, etc etc...gets us all involved in details rather than the real issue, which leads to drama.
I too am dual diagnosis. But I did not go to NA meetings for my mental illness issues. To make them an issue in those rooms is counter productive for me AND for those who come there to address their substance abuse issues.
Continue to attend the meetings and work the program if you can benefit and appreciate it for what it is, rather than be upset over what it is not.
I'm glad you do have another group in which you feel supported and helped.
Some people might say that is "hiding" things, but I think it's just good common sense. When I share at meetings, there is no reason for me to share specific personal info. What other illnesses I have or what I may be doing for them. I am NOT in that meeting to spill my guts.
I think that overly detailed and personal shares actually distract from the purpose of the meetings. Telling about general issues and feelings, good. Going into detail over relationships, jobs, meds, etc etc...gets us all involved in details rather than the real issue, which leads to drama.
I too am dual diagnosis. But I did not go to NA meetings for my mental illness issues. To make them an issue in those rooms is counter productive for me AND for those who come there to address their substance abuse issues.
Continue to attend the meetings and work the program if you can benefit and appreciate it for what it is, rather than be upset over what it is not.
I'm glad you do have another group in which you feel supported and helped.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Midwest, USA
Posts: 63
Originally Posted by Innerchild
Down the road, through my own writing I want to advocate for those who suffer from a dual diagnosis of mental illness and addiction. Reading the backlash from those judging Whitney Houston or Amy Winehouse because of their problems with addiction ill have to say it pisses me off. Many of those who have never suffered from mental illness or addiction slap labels on those who do so many of us are afraid to share with others our struggles with depression, anxiety, alcoholism, drug addiction etc...It scares them maybe they will catch it or something. Personally, ive heard due to my depression and anxiety diagnosis "its all in your head get over it" "stop t hinking about it and it will go away" "stop feeling sorry for yourself". The list goes on but God forbid I made it known to others I was committed over a month ago for depression and binge drinking id have another nice label slapped on me.
I have noticed, and this is a reason why I am uncomfortable expressing my feelings to other alcoholics or attending AA meetings because of the extremists who have years of sobriety under their belts and believe its their way is the only way. For example, at one meeting one woman walked up to me after the meeting and asked why I did not call myself an "alcoholic" I responded I dont label myself thats why. She told me I was in denial and I was an alcoholic. I was pretty angry, its very personal to me and the only person who has the right to define me is myself. I am speaking about all labels in general even my mental health diagnosis.
Ive heard a lot of **** about being on antidepressants and anti anxiety medications. They actually do help some of us from falling into the pits of depression taking away thed desire to kill ourselves. Some AA extremists who believe addicts should stay free from all pills. Well, I was put on an anti depressant in the hospital and now I am no longer drinking Ive been dealing with PTSD so my psychiatrist put me on one 1mg of Ativan take as needed. Holy **** did I take a beating for that! If I am suffering from debilitating anxiety from my past who has the right to tell me what I should or should not take. Yes, benzos can be extremely dangerous however my psychiatrist and therapist are carefully monitoring me on this medication. He gave me a script for thirty pills a few weeks ago which I stilll have more than half left. Before I left his office he told me he would see me in eight weeks and I left with an new script of Ativan 15 pills of 1 mg take half when needed. If I called him and asked for a refill once they were gone he would deny it.
My point is no one has the right to dictate to someone else what they SHOULD be doing. Those of us who suffer from mental health problems and are closely monitored under the care of doctors should not receive any backlash from those who believe any sort of drugs are the "devil". Let our doctors who I am sure are pretty aware of addicted behaviors be the judge of what we can or cant take. I am not pro medication but some of these pills actually help us live "normal" lives instead of sitting at home wallowing in our own misery. So before anyone judges realize we are all different and until you have a PhD in psychology or an MD in Psychiatry let the mental health professionals do their jobs.
I have noticed, and this is a reason why I am uncomfortable expressing my feelings to other alcoholics or attending AA meetings because of the extremists who have years of sobriety under their belts and believe its their way is the only way. For example, at one meeting one woman walked up to me after the meeting and asked why I did not call myself an "alcoholic" I responded I dont label myself thats why. She told me I was in denial and I was an alcoholic. I was pretty angry, its very personal to me and the only person who has the right to define me is myself. I am speaking about all labels in general even my mental health diagnosis.
Ive heard a lot of **** about being on antidepressants and anti anxiety medications. They actually do help some of us from falling into the pits of depression taking away thed desire to kill ourselves. Some AA extremists who believe addicts should stay free from all pills. Well, I was put on an anti depressant in the hospital and now I am no longer drinking Ive been dealing with PTSD so my psychiatrist put me on one 1mg of Ativan take as needed. Holy **** did I take a beating for that! If I am suffering from debilitating anxiety from my past who has the right to tell me what I should or should not take. Yes, benzos can be extremely dangerous however my psychiatrist and therapist are carefully monitoring me on this medication. He gave me a script for thirty pills a few weeks ago which I stilll have more than half left. Before I left his office he told me he would see me in eight weeks and I left with an new script of Ativan 15 pills of 1 mg take half when needed. If I called him and asked for a refill once they were gone he would deny it.
My point is no one has the right to dictate to someone else what they SHOULD be doing. Those of us who suffer from mental health problems and are closely monitored under the care of doctors should not receive any backlash from those who believe any sort of drugs are the "devil". Let our doctors who I am sure are pretty aware of addicted behaviors be the judge of what we can or cant take. I am not pro medication but some of these pills actually help us live "normal" lives instead of sitting at home wallowing in our own misery. So before anyone judges realize we are all different and until you have a PhD in psychology or an MD in Psychiatry let the mental health professionals do their jobs.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kansas City, Mo.
Posts: 40
Originally Posted by Sapling
Not exactly going in with an open mind....I hope you found something that worked for you.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by davidf938
I fully admit not going in with an open mind. This occured in 2008. My initial experience with AA was in 1990. I "kept coming back" at the insistance of the legal system. No one seemed to understand that the program just was not for me. I drank daily for 30 years until I found an alternative program on my own in February of 2009. I have been sober ever since. How different could my life had been if I had found this program 20 or even 10 years ago? I believe everyone entering any type of treatment should be made aware of alternatives. AA does not have a monopoly on sobriety even though I think they would like us to believe they do.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2
Stick to the program as it is laid out in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. That is what I have been hearing, and that is what I have been trying to do. It specifically says in the BB that only you can diagnose yourself as alcoholic. The people who say "You are an alcoholic" made that up. The most successful people (sober and happy) that I have met so far would not say that. Why? Because they do the 12 steps and work the program as it is laid out in the book. (I only have 6 days right now)
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