The first drink
So it goes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 1,620
The first drink
I am starting this thread at Dee's suggestion. Last night in my meet, someone said that an alcoholic has the power to avoid the first drink. After that, they have no choice if they drink. It seemed to be generally accepted as so in our group, it also is covered in pages 30 and 31 of the Book and step 1 is admitting we are powerless over alcohol
I know as long as I stay off drink one, I wont have drink 10. Someone also mentioned it in my lunch meet today
Thats my two cents, I got disagreed with, and it was suggested I start a new thread.........
I know as long as I stay off drink one, I wont have drink 10. Someone also mentioned it in my lunch meet today
Thats my two cents, I got disagreed with, and it was suggested I start a new thread.........
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Step one you admit you are Powerless over alcohol...That's what the remaing steps are for...Getting that Power. Somewhere along the way for me (around step 9) I had the obsession to drink lifted...Not sure exactly when....That is a miracle. I guess my first 3 months or so I didn't pick up a drink...Not because of Power I had...I think it was more fear driven.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,180
An interesting point. I am the same in that once I've had that first drink I just want more. Personally, I don't think I am totally powerless over alcohol as believe there is some element of willpower in the sense that we have decided to stop drinking and have stopped drinking -I think we need to take some credit for having the willpower to stop/stay stopped. I'm not saying we've done it all alone-many of us have had help from various sources but think we should credit ourselves with some willpower.
So it goes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 1,620
Originally Posted by Sapling 
Step one you admit you are Powerless over alcohol...That's what the remaing steps are for...Getting that Power. Somewhere along the way for me (around step 9) I had the obsession to drink lifted...Not sure exactly when....That is a miracle. I guess my first 3 months or so I didn't pick up a drink...Not because of Power I had...I think it was more fear driven.
Canine Welfare Advocate
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 10,962
There is the kind of insanity that follows the first drink. The one that usually entails drinking many, many more. But the Big Book talks about the insanity that preceeds the first drink.
"But there was always the curious mental phenomenon that parallel with our sound reasoning there inevitably ran some insanely trivial excuse for taking the first drink. Our sound reasoning failed to hold us in check. The insane idea won out. Next day we would ask ourselves, in all earnestness and sincerity, how it could have happened."
I get the impression that will power, no matter how strong, finds a way to fold in face of the insanity that leads us to contemplate, then take, that first drink.
"But there was always the curious mental phenomenon that parallel with our sound reasoning there inevitably ran some insanely trivial excuse for taking the first drink. Our sound reasoning failed to hold us in check. The insane idea won out. Next day we would ask ourselves, in all earnestness and sincerity, how it could have happened."
I get the impression that will power, no matter how strong, finds a way to fold in face of the insanity that leads us to contemplate, then take, that first drink.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Why I didn't drink as I worked those steps??...Not really sure...It could have been I was getting help from the same source that put me into AA to begin with. All I know is I am grateful...And always will be for that. And I let that source know it...Daily.
So it goes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 1,620
For me it was getting the realisation that I shouldnt have the first drink. My daughter used to tell me I didnt need to go to the supermarket to pick up a bottle of wine. I did think I could drink normally. Seeing step one in black and white and thinking about it was an epiphany for me. It is so obvious yet whilst I was drinking, unthinkable.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Southeast
Posts: 14
From my day by day book from yesterday:
If we've been around so long that we think our bad times are over and we cant get "crazy" again, then we probably have already gotten "crazy" in the head. None of us is immune to relapse nor so spiritual that we think we no longer need help, we may be in trouble already.
If we have forgotten our powerlessness, we may have to learn it all over again. As addicts, we will always be at risk to relapase, but with proper guidance we can be productive and fulfilled.
If we've been around so long that we think our bad times are over and we cant get "crazy" again, then we probably have already gotten "crazy" in the head. None of us is immune to relapse nor so spiritual that we think we no longer need help, we may be in trouble already.
If we have forgotten our powerlessness, we may have to learn it all over again. As addicts, we will always be at risk to relapase, but with proper guidance we can be productive and fulfilled.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto ON
Posts: 1,180
I'm of the opinion that every drink is a choice. Yes, it might get easier to choose yes once you've already done so with the first one, but it is still a choice.
AVRT would have you embrace the sentiment that you will never drink in the present moment and you will never change your mind. Since it is always the present moment and you never drink in the present moment, you never drink.
I'm not to sure about the "powerless over alcohol part". It seems to me that you have all the power.
AVRT would have you embrace the sentiment that you will never drink in the present moment and you will never change your mind. Since it is always the present moment and you never drink in the present moment, you never drink.
I'm not to sure about the "powerless over alcohol part". It seems to me that you have all the power.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by happyhappysober
From my day by day book from yesterday:
If we've been around so long that we think our bad times are over and we cant get "crazy" again, then we probably have already gotten "crazy" in the head. None of us is immune to relapse nor so spiritual that we think we no longer need help, we may be in trouble already.
If we have forgotten our powerlessness, we may have to learn it all over again. As addicts, we will always be at risk to relapase, but with proper guidance we can be productive and fulfilled.
If we've been around so long that we think our bad times are over and we cant get "crazy" again, then we probably have already gotten "crazy" in the head. None of us is immune to relapse nor so spiritual that we think we no longer need help, we may be in trouble already.
If we have forgotten our powerlessness, we may have to learn it all over again. As addicts, we will always be at risk to relapase, but with proper guidance we can be productive and fulfilled.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
I'm of the opinion that every drink is a choice. Yes, it might get easier to choose yes once you've already done so with the first one, but it is still a choice.
AVRT would have you embrace the sentiment that you will never drink in the present moment and you will never change your mind. Since it is always the present moment and you never drink in the present moment, you never drink.
I'm not to sure about the "powerless over alcohol part". It seems to me that you have all the power.
AVRT would have you embrace the sentiment that you will never drink in the present moment and you will never change your mind. Since it is always the present moment and you never drink in the present moment, you never drink.
I'm not to sure about the "powerless over alcohol part". It seems to me that you have all the power.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,146
Long ago, before this was well understood the ignorant believed the alcoholic was just not sincere, a moral inferior for having decided to not drink and then committing the 'sin against one's self and god' of drinking again.
There are some holdovers today who maintain the old belief that anyone who relapses is spineless and morally weak, and those who haven't drank for more than 20 minutes are upright and strong. That position is as ridiculous today as it was 200 years ago, cached in disguised language or not.
Telling an alcoholic to be good, be true and stalwart and keep to their gravely taken pledge to forswear all drinks and thus not bring out the Devil from deep inside has been done often enough throughout written history and rarely succeeds for long.
Imagine the beating these poor saps and their hurt and betrayed loved ones put them through when they fail. They had promised! They gave their word! They promised they were never going to ever drink and they did! Betrayer! Liar! Weakling!
Most alcoholics have plenty of experience with vows of abstinence and know well how that goes. Selling the idea that the thing that had never worked will now work takes some doing but the concept of 'just say no' is so easy that it still plays to the desperate crowd well enough to satisfy the ongoing financial needs of some.
A friend has bought into that for half his life and is out on his most recent toot, and is due to come crawling back anytime to begin another few months/year of not drinking supported by his usual rigid and ironclad unchangable decision.
He always feels like complete scum for having failed, but it's required by this view of an answer to our condition. People won't agree that he's once again a moral leper and scum but since he subscribes to the wish-away plan he can reach no other conclusion than he has no moral fibre and is a weakling every time he drinks.
Makes for a hard life, longing to be that powerful yet finding oneself consistantly eventually overpowered and going through the torture of puzzling out how it could happen yet again, unable to reconcile the ego-stroking beliefs of believing in the power of a wish and decision with their difficult to ignore reality.
Making the failed feel even more guilty and confused by encouraging terrible self-condemnation and advising them that they had better be more morally compliant and of higher character on their next doomed time at the water trough is ultimately very cruel, as well as unworkable for the long term. Glad that approach has mostly fallen away with the passage of time and better information.
There are some holdovers today who maintain the old belief that anyone who relapses is spineless and morally weak, and those who haven't drank for more than 20 minutes are upright and strong. That position is as ridiculous today as it was 200 years ago, cached in disguised language or not.
Telling an alcoholic to be good, be true and stalwart and keep to their gravely taken pledge to forswear all drinks and thus not bring out the Devil from deep inside has been done often enough throughout written history and rarely succeeds for long.
Imagine the beating these poor saps and their hurt and betrayed loved ones put them through when they fail. They had promised! They gave their word! They promised they were never going to ever drink and they did! Betrayer! Liar! Weakling!
Most alcoholics have plenty of experience with vows of abstinence and know well how that goes. Selling the idea that the thing that had never worked will now work takes some doing but the concept of 'just say no' is so easy that it still plays to the desperate crowd well enough to satisfy the ongoing financial needs of some.
A friend has bought into that for half his life and is out on his most recent toot, and is due to come crawling back anytime to begin another few months/year of not drinking supported by his usual rigid and ironclad unchangable decision.
He always feels like complete scum for having failed, but it's required by this view of an answer to our condition. People won't agree that he's once again a moral leper and scum but since he subscribes to the wish-away plan he can reach no other conclusion than he has no moral fibre and is a weakling every time he drinks.
Makes for a hard life, longing to be that powerful yet finding oneself consistantly eventually overpowered and going through the torture of puzzling out how it could happen yet again, unable to reconcile the ego-stroking beliefs of believing in the power of a wish and decision with their difficult to ignore reality.
Making the failed feel even more guilty and confused by encouraging terrible self-condemnation and advising them that they had better be more morally compliant and of higher character on their next doomed time at the water trough is ultimately very cruel, as well as unworkable for the long term. Glad that approach has mostly fallen away with the passage of time and better information.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
AR1959,
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Your experience is exactly what it is. If your experience is that you can stay away from the first drink, then that's what it is.
My disagreement is with the 'I have the power to stay away from the first drink' message getting carried in a meeting of AA. Read pages 22-44 in the BB, paying special attention to these passages. Large parts of Ch. 2 and all of Ch. 3 are devoted to this lack of choice idea. Namely, why does an alcoholic who knows better than to pick up the first drink, time and time again pick up the first drink? Jim's, Fred's, and the jaywalker stories are all there to demonstrate this one simple idea.
It goes without saying, that if this 'lack of choice' experience does not match your own experience, that's totally fine. But it's at the core of Step 1 in AA. Someone sharing their opinion about an experience they have never had in AA is irresponsible and damaging to those in AA who are full of 'lack of choice' experience in their own lives.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Your experience is exactly what it is. If your experience is that you can stay away from the first drink, then that's what it is.
My disagreement is with the 'I have the power to stay away from the first drink' message getting carried in a meeting of AA. Read pages 22-44 in the BB, paying special attention to these passages. Large parts of Ch. 2 and all of Ch. 3 are devoted to this lack of choice idea. Namely, why does an alcoholic who knows better than to pick up the first drink, time and time again pick up the first drink? Jim's, Fred's, and the jaywalker stories are all there to demonstrate this one simple idea.
It goes without saying, that if this 'lack of choice' experience does not match your own experience, that's totally fine. But it's at the core of Step 1 in AA. Someone sharing their opinion about an experience they have never had in AA is irresponsible and damaging to those in AA who are full of 'lack of choice' experience in their own lives.
Originally Posted by AA BB 1st Ed.
These observations would be academic and pointless if our friend never took the first drink, thereby setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind, rather than in his body.
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
The fact is that most alcoholics, for reasons yet obscure, have lost the power of choice in drink. Our so called will power becomes practically nonexistent. We are unable, at certain times, to bring into our consciousness with sufficient force the memory of the suffering and humiliation of even a week or a month ago. We are without defense against the first drink.
So it goes
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 1,620
I am probably too new to get into this debate. I know for me, that if I have one drink I will have several. I think that for a recovering alcoholic who is trying they know the same. Someone who has not got to that stage, then I concede yes you are right. However, I think I will concede at this point and not debate this thread further.
Meow
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: The Great Lakes State
Posts: 1,585
Originally Posted by keithj
My disagreement is with the 'I have the power to stay away from the first drink' message getting carried in a meeting of AA. Read pages 22-44 in the BB, paying special attention to these passages. Large parts of Ch. 2 and all of Ch. 3 are devoted to this lack of choice idea. Namely, why does an alcoholic who knows better than to pick up the first drink, time and time again pick up the first drink? Jim's, Fred's, and the jaywalker stories are all there to demonstrate this one simple idea.
If you don't have the power (call it willpower, if you want) to stay away from the first drink, than how do you stay away at all? What makes you stay away? Because, to me, it's all about making the deliberate and premeditated choice to not pick up that first drink - if you don't pick up the first, you cannot, by definition, pick up a second, third, fourth etc.
(Oh, and FTR for the group as a whole, there are those of us who can have one drink and then walk away. I can do that very easily. Doesn't mean I don't have a problem with alcohol, however.)
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto ON
Posts: 1,180
I think that often the decision "to have a drink" isn't really that...it's more often the decision to get loaded...in for a penny in for a pound sort of thing.
It never comes to that though if you make the decision not to drink. And making that decision not to drink gets really easy when you expand on that decision so that it doesn't include just this one time but all times.
I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.
I find it incredibly empowering to have taken the decision making process upon myself.
It never comes to that though if you make the decision not to drink. And making that decision not to drink gets really easy when you expand on that decision so that it doesn't include just this one time but all times.
I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.
I find it incredibly empowering to have taken the decision making process upon myself.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by Tippingpoint
I find it incredibly empowering to have taken the decision making process upon myself.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by PurpleCat
If you don't have the power (call it willpower, if you want) to stay away from the first drink, than how do you stay away at all? What makes you stay away?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,180
Originally Posted by Sapling
A power greater than myself....It's based on having a spiritual awakening...A complete psychic change....As a result of taking the 12 steps of AA and practicing the principles of the program in all my affairs....Completely changing the way I think and live....For the better.....I hope that makes sense....It does to me.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
