MentalLoop

Everyday that I read posts on SR, I am always fascinated by the stark similarities between all our experiences. In fact, not just our experiences, but our thought processes and coping mechanisms. Then it dawned on me that to a statistician, this is probably exactly what he would have expected - and not necessarily because we're alcoholics, but because of our approach to recovery.

-- To be clear folks, SR didn't find us, we found SR. That is the first "non-random" event. Something in every single one of us prompted the web search.

-- There must have been something in the many posts we read that resonated with each and every one of us, that compelled us to stay

-- Most of us at one point or another defined ourselves as high functioning, and had the resumes to prove it - either as hugely successful parents, lawyers, traders, accountants, public servants, etc.

-- Most of us are brutally honest with ourselves. Even the banter that goes back and forth that at times seems piercing, hits us even harder because somebody is validating what we feel inside

-- Most of us have reconciled the fact that alcohol is not the cause of our problems, rather, our attempt at curing them the wrong way.

-- To the prior point, I genuinely believe that most of us almost needed the alcohol to dull our senses, and throw us off balance, so that our minds could wake-up and insist that something was wrong. Maybe too much of a generalization, but at least for me, sober thinking has really helped me get through much of my anxiety, fear, anger and resentment. I have come so far, that i can actually feel an episode coming on, and can rationalize myself back down to normalcy.

I have only elaborated on the surface of our similarities, but I am sure that statistically, it is not either random or an accident that we have found each other, relate to each other, and will help each other get better. For that - I am thankful to god for making SR a part of my life, and the good fortune of finding similarly minded individuals. Dee / Anna, maybe you guys can convert SR to an eHarmony or Match.com and get some marriages out of the recovery process (i'm only partially kidding by the way!)

Adipsia

During a particularly lucid moment around five years ago I came to the conclusion that addiction had to serve a purpose. That it was a progressing and progressive dis-ease from a planetary viewpoint, and was actually part of the human/spiritual evolutionary process.

I came to a point with my ex-partner's addiction where I realised that there was an incredible purity and drive in terms of her addiction that clearly wasn't there for me or her children. I never saw - and have never seen her - as a "bad" person, just a driven-one, whose drive had taken her in the wrong direction. I saw that her drive was almost saintly and in some strange way, blessed... just misplaced.

Oddly enough, I googled "Blessed are the Addicts" at that time, because I thought that I could possibly write a book about my idea, and thought that a good, grounded title would serve as an adequate starting point. Perhaps unsurprisingly I found that someone had already written that book, although many of the points he made didn't ring true with me.

I should mention that I was - and still am - heavily into "A Course in Miracles" and Eckhart Tolle.

I then came across a transcript of an interview between an American guy called "Mishlove" and a university professor from Colorado called Francis Seeberger, which was conducted due to a book that Seeberger had published that dealt with the subject. I bought that book and another called "Addiction and Grace" and what I found was that everything I had felt from a gut-level, had been expounded in these books, and also tied into a whole range of other subjects that I had intuitively knew were right.

I also came across Byron Katie Mitchell at the same time, and her theories around her belief that we're not thinkers but are "thunk" also rang true.

So to come back to your point, I don't believe that there are many truly original thoughts down here. My belief is that most of the time we act as radio-set receivers intercepting thoughts that are already out there in the ether. 99.9% of the postings here are not original, and that's why it's relatively easy to arrive at a consensus of opinion. Most of us have experienced these thoughts before and then been able to generalise that experience. They don't belong to anyone in particular.

The big question for me is therefore not about how to tap in to the radio frequency noise, but how to filter it out and find inspiration. And that is also - as I see it - the ultimate goal of any addict being driven in to the wall by his/her addiction.

Regards,

Peter

MentalLoop

Peter - wow, but hunh?

Have to admit - way over my head.

Adipsia

Sorry... I've been bursting to let that out for the past three years.

I agree with you. I'm just coming at this from a different angle.

I believe that we are all pulled together here for a reason, there are no "coincidences" and I think this is a fantastic support resource for addicts and codependents alike.

If you want to discuss what we've posted, I think we might end up with quite a lively thread.

Cheers,

Peter

MentalLoop

I'm all in, but need to take a brief 1 hour break. Then let's do it!

FBL

This website is a wonderful resource. A lot of us have been through very similar things with our addictions. Helps a lot to know that we're not alone.

womaninprogress

I THINK I'm on the same page....

A friend said to me recently "you are searching for so much more from life then most people"......

I often subject this friend to my "spiritual ramblings" my "meaning of life" moments, my quest for "enlightenment".

I think in dealing with addicts/alcoholics it has made me become so much more self aware. And honest to myself about myself. I'm not judgemental, and I try to be compassionate with everyone.

I thank the alcoholics and addicts in my life. I thank my Higher Power for putting me on this path.

Although some days I do think too much and feel overwhelmed, or like if I'm constantly looking for ways to improve myself then there must be something wrong with me???????? Wow deep subject. Thanks!

Adipsia

We're most definitely on the same page, and yes, it's a deep subject because it causes us to question not only who we are - which most of us do at some point in our lives - but also our whole thought system and everything that we've ever learned. I think many of us are on the quest to find out who we are, but most are unwilling to question everything that we've ever learned... that's a seriously scary space.

BackToSquareOne

From the day you're born you derive knowledge from everything you come into contact with. If you were born on an Island (mother abandoned you there) and the only other inhabitants were a colony of apes what would you learn to be?

Adipsia

In no way do I wish to hijack MentalLoop's thread, but at the same time I think it would be worthwhile to open this discussion out to a wider audience to include both addicts and codependents, so it may be worthwhile creating a new topic heading if that's OK ? I'll wait for MentalLoop's decision.

Sapling

An alcoholic ape?

Dee74

Nothing to stop you from starting a new thread inspired by this one, if you want to explore that idea Peter

I don't know what it was that led me here - I don't know why I'd never thought of the idea before in the 15 years I'd been on the net, and I don't know why I clicked on SR and not any one of other 20 sites I found.

But looking back I was definitely meant to be here...I'm glad all turned out the way it did

D

Adipsia

You would almost certainly initially see yourself as an ape, but something tells me that you would have a gnawing sense of doubt about it as time went on.

You'd realise that it wasn't the truth, and you'd start searching down a path for what was valid, and helped you to feel comfortable within yourself.

I actually believe that this is the starting point. Discomfort with who we are... and I'd love to put some ideas down and open them out for discussion.

MentalLoop

Belai on Adipsia......I think you got a winner of a broader topic....

I also think you nailed something much much bigger when you said question everything we've ever learned. I'll give you a particular example, which might be a bit too much into a tangible event, but it seriously made me re-evaluate all of parenthood and upbringing. From when i was a child, my father ingrained in my head that there is no other pride and better welfare than to create your own success from scratch. What this translated into was total independence once i graduated high school. That doesn't mean my parents didn't love me or buy me gifts. It just meant if i wanted to go to college, i had to make it happen, if i wanted a car i did it, if i wanted to make long distance phone calls - i had to get my own phone line. I did live at home during college, but aside from food at home, i provided for myself by loving design of my parents.

Roll the clock forward seven years from college and my wife and i are getting married. There were a few hitches though. First her mom was paying for grad school (law), and my wife owned pieces of the family business. One of my criteria for marriage was that we had to pay for school - i.e her mother couldn't do it anymore, and she had to sign over title of the businesses because we didn't earn it. My loving albeit crazy wife agreed. Then i went one step further - I told her i wasn't going to get obligated to her school loans if she got anything less than a "B" (I know, i was a d_uche - but honestly how i was raised). My wife dropped out of law school within the week - DON'T SAY IT. Our life flourished, we bought homes, businesses, etc. - all on our own nickel. What pride I had!

Then came my children - and everything changed. My very first impulse was to hurry and setup our wills and trusts. We immediately started funding college accounts. We started talking about how the rental property was going to be our gift to our son and daughter to always make them deal with each other in some aspect of their lives. THEN IT DAWNS ON ME - IT IS ABSOLUTE HUMAN INSTINCT TO FIGHT WITH EVERY OUNCE OF YOUR FIBER FOR YOUR CHILDREN.

My in-laws were not raising spoiled brats, they were provisioning for their children while they were alive, and creating a path for them to enter into the family business. They were trying to find a way for their children to be more successful than they were. This notion of pride that my father was trying to rear in me was his own baggage. Don't get me wrong, i attribute everything I have to this doctrine, but I also attribute, and this is huge to this doctrine: Judgementalness, resentment and anger. Every time I see my sister-in-law get something that in my mind i would have deemed unearned, i get mad. Every time my wife doesn't do something to utter perfection i get a twitch in my head. If you put on a lens of I must do 100% for myself, and I must be 100% successful, you can see how an individual might start to develop some serious self-righteousness. And it is not because we think we are right, it is because what we see in front of us conflicts with what is ingrained in our most basic thought process. Something else i learned - my wife always smiles. She never has a bad day. She never stresses. Then ask the question, who is more successful: The person with $1mm, or the person who genuinely doesn't care if they have it or not?

One of my many unwindings of thought, that honestly, was only possible when i put down the bottle and said - I need to think this through, everything can't trigger me. Said another way IF YOU ARE THE ONLY GENIUS IN A ROOM FULL OF MORONs, WHO IS THE AWKWARD ONE?

Adipsia

Thanks MentalLoop, I'm going to start a new thread called "Blessed are the Addicts"... let's see where this goes, hopefully it won't go totally down the pan !

recoverywfaith

This particular thread/post lead me to SR:

Codependency
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I attended an incredible class today about being in touch with your feelings, and how important it is to be able to recognize and manage them in order to grow mentally and spiritually.

It dealt with both alcoholism and codependency, and the one thing they both need and have in common in order to exist.

Denial

She listed the traits of denial

Lying
Excuses
Rationalization
Manipulation
"Hiding"
Blaming
Judgmental
Justification
Resentment

and mentioned to especially watch for the "yeah buts" and "I know"

She mentioned that all of these take place to yourself first, others second.

I am a sober alcoholic. For many years my only experience with codependency (that I was aware of) was with the woman I was involved with when I initially got sober. She was so nasty to me both before but especially after I got sober, I felt towards codependents the same way many of you feel about active alcoholics. She was incredibly harmful and controlling, interspersed with incredibly loving and wonderful, especially after I got sober, then she got REALLY nasty. I repeated this experience 15 years later on even a grander scale.

Now, many years later, I have a bit more experience with it, on both sides of the dynamic. I am, in the parlance, a "double winner". It's akin to if many of you, after years of suffering at the hands of an active alcoholic, spent years in therapy, healed, moved on from your abusive relationship, and woke up one day to find yourself an active alcoholic. I became the very thing I feared and loathed.

My God has a sense of humor a small boy who pulls the wings off flies would readily relate to.

Anyway, this class was incredible, it has made me think all day long. The Counselor is also a "double winner" we spoke for awhile after the class, she gave me some amazing insights into some "stepwork" I was "stuck" on (step six for those that have worked the steps, I recently discovered there is a little more to it then I previously thought)

When I got to my computer, I looked up codependency and found this:

Codependency and the enabling behavior

Quote:
For a long time, alcohol addiction was considered a problem that affects only the alcoholic. The alcoholic was perceived as a bad person without ambition that can be cured only if separated from their family and with the help of other alcoholics.

Nowadays, alcohol addiction is considered a family problem (with a major impact on the entire family, not only on the alcoholic) where each member of the family plays a significant role in the disease onset and evolution.

A person in need and an enabler find each other because they fulfill each other's needs. The enabler needs to protect and care for those in need, while the sick person needs to be protected and cared for.
The family members of an alcoholic are called codependents. However, this term also includes all the people around an alcoholic (not only the family members) such as the alcoholic's friends, co-workers, and neighbors. A codependent or enabler is any person around the alcoholic that becomes their ally and a double participant to the disease.

Codependency was used for the first time in alcohol addiction treatment journals at the beginning of the 70's. Initially, the term referred to the wives of the alcoholics, and only recently was used to define a dysfunctional style to relate with others.

Initially, codependency symptoms were considered a reaction to a stressful life next to an alcoholic, and the excessive fear, shame, and pain experienced by the family were considered a response to the alcoholic's behaviour.

However, researchers have noticed that the codependent behavior continued to be present among family members even when the alcoholic becomes sober.

Alcohol addiction specialists have realised that the codependent behavior is a distinctive disease that affects the family, and the hidden causes of this dysfunctional behavior aggravates the drinking habit of the alcoholic.

Today, alcohol addiction counselor use the codependency term to help family members understand the reactions and the behaviors they develop living with an alcoholic.

An enabler can be described as a special, polite, and altruist person, concerned with others' well being, and willing to help and care for others. Their desire and efforts to care for those in need are triggered by good intentions, but usually become compulsive and harmful to themselves and others. The enabler can be trapped into an vicious circle of insatisfactions. In most cases, the enablers take the role of a martyr and tries to rescue those in need.

Due to the repeated attempts of an enabler to save those in need, those that receive the care develop a destructive behavior (they become dependent on their enabler rescue actions). An enabler grows to enjoy their rescuer role, and the more they help the more they feel satisfied.

The codependent behavior is caused by the enabler's attempts to control the feelings, thoughts and actions of other people.

An enabler often feels that they are the center of their family universe and they feel responsible for others' happiness or unhappiness. An enabler organizes their life trying to receive validation from those around them. Often, enablers cannot break away from a dysfunctional relationship.

Examples of co-dependent behavior:

» They takes over the alcoholic's responsibilities.
» They justify the alcoholic's behavior to their family, relatives, friends, co-workers, or superiors.
» They take over difficult activities that should be done by the alcoholic.
» They take control over the alcoholic's life by stopping them from participating to different social events (where the alcoholic can drink), by tracing chores that mean to keep the alcoholic away from the alcohol source, by digging after hidden bottles of alcohol and throwing them away, and by demonstrating with serious arguments the alcoholic's lies.
» They are not sincere with the alcoholic, other persons, or themselves about the reality they live in and the feelings they have.
» They try to be perfect in everything they do, think, and believe, because they need to feel appreciated and admired.

The codependent behaviour has its own progressive evolution influenced by the addiction's evolution.

The first phase of the codependent behavior is a protective attitude triggered by the occasionally drinking of their alcoholic partner. The codependent tries to excuse their partner's behavior using a vast amount of plausible reasons.

When the partner's drinking become abusive, the codependent needs to find a responsible person for this situations. Unfortunately, in this situation the enabler becomes the target of all the reproaches, accusations, and blame which make them feel responsible for their partner's drinking problem. The codependent starts to doubt their quality as a human being, spouse, or parent. When the situation puts to much strain on their self-esteem, they will struggle to prove to others and themselves that are perfect by trying to make everybody happy, taking over lot of responsibilities, and solving difficult situations. The codependent is motivated by the believe that only being perfect in everything they do, they will determine their partner to stop drinking.

Unfortunately, their efforts are not followed by the desired reaction, and instead, their partner starts drinking even more. This leads to a new type of codependent behaviour: the controller. This is a normal reaction triggered by the need to keep a chaotic situation under control, to reduce the tension, and to restore a secure environment. The codependent controls every aspect of the alcoholic's life and tries to organize their life in order to keep them away from purchasing alcohol.

In time, the codependent's self-esteem decreases and they enter a new phase: the accuser. The codependent perceives their alcoholic partner as the only cause of their problems, and projects towards them deep feelings of anger, rage, and fear.

Progressively, the codependent completely loses their self-esteem and they isolate from society (this is a protection mechanism). They perceive themselves as victims, feel sorry for themselves, and lose the desire to help and care for others. They break away from their families, friends, relatives, and they isolate themselves in a world full of grief.

The progressive evolution of the codependent behaviour ends in the last phase, the enabler. The desperate attempts of the codependent to manipulate and control their partner's life actually reinforce their dysfunctional behaviors and prevent them from facing the consequences of being an alcoholic.

Codependents need help to recover from their disfunctional lifestyle in order to re-establish a normal couple and family life, especially when the alcoholic is treated for their addiction.

The codependent's recovery is possible only when the codependent is facing and accepting the pain caused by the past and present, and by adopting a new, healthier lifestyle. However, the recovery takes times because the codependent behaviour (itself) had developed in time. Sometimes, recovery spans over the entire life. Codependents can receive professional help from specialists with expertise in this type of problems to identify those factors that triggered the codependent behaviour, and to implement effective coping strategies that prevent future relapses in the old habits.

I still have so much work to do......

I recognize both myself in this and some "exes"

Eventually I got to a point in my life and sobriety where I got "complacent" and I started repeating my "family of origin" behavior after years of therapy and stepwork, proof to me that "old thinking" will be with me forever if I don't actively stay on top of it.

I never, ever ever want to get as sick as I got with codependency again.

It was not only more painful to live with then active alcoholism, it was harder to get help from, because I wasn't the one with "the problem" (I thought)

Codependency is by far, bar none, the most painful and confusing experience I have ever gone through.

I wish us all well.

Adipsia

That's absolutely the point, it strikes me that fundamentally addictions come about due to that craving for something more, something meaningful. Jung made the point in one of his letters to the founders of AA that there was a terrible irony with alcoholism in that the dis-ease was due to a searching for the wrong kind of "spirit".

I'm getting my thoughts together to start the thread, but in the meantime the reason I see addicts as "blessed" is that unlike many people in the world, at least they are searching for something with a passion. They just haven't come to an understanding of why, or appreciate that they are searching in the wrong place.

Adipsia

I've started the new thread called "Blessed are the Addicts" over in Friends and Family, mainly because I had no idea where to put it. So I figured that as we're all friends around here, I would place it in that forum. I'd love it if you could add your comments.

Best wishes,

Peter