Sapling

I guess it would work if you really had faith in it...Please don't burn my daily bread.

wpainterw

Yes, Terminally, this is indeed unique in a sort of Alice in Wonderland sense that the more everyone tries to explain it to me the less I understand it. Perhaps all this analysis will begin to disappear gradually, like the Cheshire Cat, First the discussion's tail (or tale), then its whiskers, then its paws until finally only its enigmatic smile remains, hovering on a tree branch and lit by the light of the holiday moon. This holiday smile is my higher power, resting there upon a wintry tree limb and wishing you all a happy cork free holiday!

W.

recycle

Given Jung's place in Bill W's mind it is not too surprising that there is a Gnostic spin to the BB. Apparently the as you understand him thing smooths over lots of AA/Christian conflicts even where the BB strays into ontology. "Faith without works" is another example. I thought sola fide was a big deal to Protestants, but I have never heard any discussion of it in the program.

DayTrader

Not to be argumentative but you put that out there and it's not true for me, my sponsees, my sponsor, anyone I know in my line of sponsorship (all the way up to Chief Blackhawk with 53 years of being a recovered alkie), nor just about anyone I know in my two homegroups with what I'd call "attractive/quality" sobriety that I'd like to emulate/have myself.

I'm not, however, going to engage in a debate about what the tradition means.......ESPECIALLY not in the newcomers area. Besides, esoteric knowledge of what the steps and the traditions mean is of little use. It's the application of them, the learning as one goes, that teaches one what they "really" mean. Actual experience with them and applying them is what matters and, imo, what leads one to the actual understanding of what they're intended for.

I'll say this though, while the "group" and the "program" were my higher power for a while in recovery, that......like many many areas of my life, changed as I matured. IMO, the way your post was written it implies that AA itself (or maybe just the various groups) dictate what one should do, how to live life, determine right from wrong, and supply the necessary power and guidance to live a happy sober life.........and that's just not so.

Mark75

Good stuff DT.

I am not particularly bothered by TU's statement... but I am glad you pointed out the possible inference that AA runs our lives... it does not... He does... and I don't want to go too much further into it... sometimes I think people think that if I have a higher power named God then I must think there is a guy with a beard somewhere with a file with my name on it in His hands that maps out every minute of my existence... not at all...

I digress....

If there is, in fact, anything that even approaches consciousness at an AA meeting, then my higher power is strongly felt... and at meetings with a strong group conscious, my home group, for example, my higher power is overwhelmingly present...

But, then again... I have felt my higher power at Walmart, LOL.

wpainterw

I majored in Philosophy and graduated with high honors. I then had a year of graduate study. Nonetheless I am completely lost in this discussion of how "gnostic" thinking, "ontology", Jung, etc. apply to AA. I'm so glad I'm a Cheshire cat, sitting on my (ontological? existential?) branch, slowly disappearing in the light of the holiday moon. (See my previous post). And I'm a sober Cheshire Cat! That's the important thing! Years ago I abandoned philosophy to become a fan of Yogi Berra- "Sobriety ain't everything! It's the only thing!"
Incidentally did Wittgenstein ever get drunk? What would he have thought of AA?

W.

wpainterw

P.S. As has been already pointed out, this is a forum for "Newcomers". When I was a "newcomer" to AA I was often admonished, "Don't intellectualize!" At the time I thought that this had a somewhat sinister sound, as if we were supposed to turn off our brains ("stinkin' thinkin'- "that's what got you here in the first place!") and join a slavish throng all in lockstep like some kind of prison gang. As time went on, however, I realized the value of focussing on what's really important to get things back where they should be, living one day at a time, trying to work the steps as we understood them, taking it easy, etc. etc. W.C. Fields, that icon of all alcoholics, put it very well in his comedy film, "The Golf Specialist" where he kept repeating over and over, while struggling to disentangle his golf club from a melange of apple pie and old newspapers, "The important thing is to keep your eye on the ball!"
Philosophy at times seems to me a little like old newspapers, at least if it might distract newcomers from the crucial issue, namely "How do i keep from drinking today?

W.

Terminally Unique

This is why Bill W. could write that one could make the group their higher power. The implication is that the group conscience is channeling the voice of God, and that one could tap into it this way.

Terminally Unique

Given Carl Jung's fascination with the Gnostics, that would indeed be an obvious connection. Still, you can literally see the influence of Gnostic thought in the rooms. DayTrader's post above, for example, with emphasis on "insider knowledge" gained by experience with the Steps, as well as the acknowledgement that his understanding of his Higher Power evolved, fits the definition of gnosis almost to a T. As for why any of this matters, this thread was started by someone who mistook the Big Book for a strictly Christian document, when in fact, it is not. The Twelve Step groups have become a phenomenon, and quite possibly the largest revival of Gnostic thought in modern times.