The Big Book
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by WakeUp 
Read the long form of Tradition Three above. If a group is practicing the AA program of recovery from an agnostic/atheist viewpoint, they are an AA group. If a group says they're "AA" and their working Rational Recovery's book, that would seem to me to be outside affiliation.
Tradition Four means that all groups are autonomous in how they want to run their affairs. AA "Central" doesn't send the AA cops down to kick the door in. In fact, the groups run the entire organization of Alcoholics Anonymous, via the group conscious. See Tradition Two.
Can anyone tell I've just finished an exhaustive course in AA history?
Tradition Four means that all groups are autonomous in how they want to run their affairs. AA "Central" doesn't send the AA cops down to kick the door in. In fact, the groups run the entire organization of Alcoholics Anonymous, via the group conscious. See Tradition Two.
Can anyone tell I've just finished an exhaustive course in AA history?
I originally pointed out if the 12 steps were being followed or were different. AA is about the steps so I doubt they would support a group using totally different steps. That would just be a different recovery group entirely.
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by Nirvana1
AA central is what governs things to my knowledge. I'm not an expert at this, but I know that folks can't just make up their own program and call themselves an AA meeting. They are still a recovery group but just wouldn't be endorsed AA. You get what I'm pointing out?
Taken from Area 75's web site:
The Structure of the Organization
Introduction
The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous make clear the principle that A.A., as such, should never be organized, that there are no bosses and no government in A.A. Yet at the same time, the Traditions recognize the need for some kind of organization to carry the message in ways that are impossible for the local groups - such as publication of uniform literature and public information resources, helping new groups get started, publishing an international magazine, and carrying the message in other languages into other countries.
The Conference structure of A.A. is the framework in which these "general services" are carried out. It is a method by which A.A.'s collective group conscience can speak forcefully and put its desires for worldwide services into effect. It is the structure that takes the place of government in A.A., ensuring that the full voice of A.A. will be heard and guaranteeing that movement-wide services will continue to function under all conditions. The story of the development of general services and Conference structure is told in the historical material that appears in the A.A. Service Manual Combined with Twelve Concepts for World Services, written by Bill W. one of the co-founders of A.A. Today, general services include all kinds of activities within the Conference structure, carried on by districts, area committees, delegates, trustees, the General Service Office and the Grapevine (A.A.'s monthly magazine). Usually, these services affect A.A. as a whole.
Top of Page
How A.A. is Organized
A.A. has been called an upside-down organization because by looking at an organizational chart the A.A. group or meeting is on top and "headquarters" is on the bottom. A.A. is comprised of groups or meetings. (Based on the Fourth Tradition of A.A. taken from the Long Form, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.")
Each A.A. group or meeting may elect a general service representative (GSR) to represent the group at district and area business meetings. Groups or meetings form districts, usually on a geographic basis, and districts form areas, also usually on a geographic basis. Area 75 represents the A.A. groups meeting in the southern region of Wisconsin. Each area in the U.S. and Canada elects a delegate to attend an annual Conference where matters of importance are determined by the voting delegates. Other Conference attendees include trustees, directors of A.A. World Services and the Grapevine magazine, staff members of the General Service Office and staff of the Grapevine magazine.
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by RV GTO
"AA Central" is in fact the General Service Office.
Taken from Area 75's web site:
The Structure of the Organization
Introduction
The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous make clear the principle that A.A., as such, should never be organized, that there are no bosses and no government in A.A. Yet at the same time, the Traditions recognize the need for some kind of organization to carry the message in ways that are impossible for the local groups - such as publication of uniform literature and public information resources, helping new groups get started, publishing an international magazine, and carrying the message in other languages into other countries.
The Conference structure of A.A. is the framework in which these "general services" are carried out. It is a method by which A.A.'s collective group conscience can speak forcefully and put its desires for worldwide services into effect. It is the structure that takes the place of government in A.A., ensuring that the full voice of A.A. will be heard and guaranteeing that movement-wide services will continue to function under all conditions. The story of the development of general services and Conference structure is told in the historical material that appears in the A.A. Service Manual Combined with Twelve Concepts for World Services, written by Bill W. one of the co-founders of A.A. Today, general services include all kinds of activities within the Conference structure, carried on by districts, area committees, delegates, trustees, the General Service Office and the Grapevine (A.A.'s monthly magazine). Usually, these services affect A.A. as a whole.
Top of Page
How A.A. is Organized
A.A. has been called an upside-down organization because by looking at an organizational chart the A.A. group or meeting is on top and "headquarters" is on the bottom. A.A. is comprised of groups or meetings. (Based on the Fourth Tradition of A.A. taken from the Long Form, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.")
Each A.A. group or meeting may elect a general service representative (GSR) to represent the group at district and area business meetings. Groups or meetings form districts, usually on a geographic basis, and districts form areas, also usually on a geographic basis. Area 75 represents the A.A. groups meeting in the southern region of Wisconsin. Each area in the U.S. and Canada elects a delegate to attend an annual Conference where matters of importance are determined by the voting delegates. Other Conference attendees include trustees, directors of A.A. World Services and the Grapevine magazine, staff members of the General Service Office and staff of the Grapevine magazine.
Taken from Area 75's web site:
The Structure of the Organization
Introduction
The Twelve Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous make clear the principle that A.A., as such, should never be organized, that there are no bosses and no government in A.A. Yet at the same time, the Traditions recognize the need for some kind of organization to carry the message in ways that are impossible for the local groups - such as publication of uniform literature and public information resources, helping new groups get started, publishing an international magazine, and carrying the message in other languages into other countries.
The Conference structure of A.A. is the framework in which these "general services" are carried out. It is a method by which A.A.'s collective group conscience can speak forcefully and put its desires for worldwide services into effect. It is the structure that takes the place of government in A.A., ensuring that the full voice of A.A. will be heard and guaranteeing that movement-wide services will continue to function under all conditions. The story of the development of general services and Conference structure is told in the historical material that appears in the A.A. Service Manual Combined with Twelve Concepts for World Services, written by Bill W. one of the co-founders of A.A. Today, general services include all kinds of activities within the Conference structure, carried on by districts, area committees, delegates, trustees, the General Service Office and the Grapevine (A.A.'s monthly magazine). Usually, these services affect A.A. as a whole.
Top of Page
How A.A. is Organized
A.A. has been called an upside-down organization because by looking at an organizational chart the A.A. group or meeting is on top and "headquarters" is on the bottom. A.A. is comprised of groups or meetings. (Based on the Fourth Tradition of A.A. taken from the Long Form, "With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues our common welfare is paramount.")
Each A.A. group or meeting may elect a general service representative (GSR) to represent the group at district and area business meetings. Groups or meetings form districts, usually on a geographic basis, and districts form areas, also usually on a geographic basis. Area 75 represents the A.A. groups meeting in the southern region of Wisconsin. Each area in the U.S. and Canada elects a delegate to attend an annual Conference where matters of importance are determined by the voting delegates. Other Conference attendees include trustees, directors of A.A. World Services and the Grapevine magazine, staff members of the General Service Office and staff of the Grapevine magazine.
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by Nirvana1
Ok, how about you replace "AA central" with "whoever decides what group goes into the directory". I already said I didn't know who decides what a group is AA and what isn't. You're are getting caught up in language that is besides the point. My original question was with what steps a group was using. AA steps or their own. That was all. If a group is working different steps, then it wouldn't be good for a newcomer to look up the directory and go to that meeting expecting to get help using AA.
Your point of view I believe is if they're doing something else under the guise of AA and not following traditions, they are not an AA group.
My point of view is if they are following traditions and this "person" walked in and put the group down for being agnostic, this "person" had no right to do that.
Let's sit back and wait for her reply.
RV
Awakening...
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the present
Posts: 1,125
Here's a good example of what I went through about meeting structer.
I started a meditation/Step 11 meeting. We were listed in all the schedules and I was going to the district GSR meetings, everything was fine.
Then, someone with too much time on their hands went to our DCM and started questioning if we were a "real" group. Then our DCM questioned me. I talked to our group, we held a group conscious, looked over our traditions, discussed how we would help a newcomer coming to our meeting, and eventually it became a non-issue.
That's my most recent experience.
I started a meditation/Step 11 meeting. We were listed in all the schedules and I was going to the district GSR meetings, everything was fine.
Then, someone with too much time on their hands went to our DCM and started questioning if we were a "real" group. Then our DCM questioned me. I talked to our group, we held a group conscious, looked over our traditions, discussed how we would help a newcomer coming to our meeting, and eventually it became a non-issue.
That's my most recent experience.
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by RV GTO
Agree, instead of debating semantics (which will ruin the OP's original point of this thread) let's ask her opinion of the meeting structure. If they are a rational recovery meeting with an AA title, than I completely agree with you.
Your point of view I believe is if they're doing something else under the guise of AA and not following traditions, they are not an AA group.
My point of view is if they are following traditions and this "person" walked in and put the group down for being agnostic, this "person" had no right to do that.
Let's sit back and wait for her reply.
RV
Your point of view I believe is if they're doing something else under the guise of AA and not following traditions, they are not an AA group.
My point of view is if they are following traditions and this "person" walked in and put the group down for being agnostic, this "person" had no right to do that.
Let's sit back and wait for her reply.
RV
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by Nirvana1
Exactly. But wouldn't steps 2, 3, and 11 have to be different if your group was strictly agnostic? That is why I brought up what kind of steps the group was following. Changing steps is probably where the issue starts with the group imo. But again I still don't know what can be changed or not!
Step 2 talks about a power greater than ourselves - all sorts of posts of people talking what that power may be, anything from a door knob to god
Step 3 adds the preface "God as we understood Him" I think this gives folks some "wiggle room" with respect to religious beliefs (just my humble opinion)
Step 11 also adds "God as we understood Him" same opinion as above
These are just my opinions Nirvana, others may want to chime in with their own.
Nirvana,I believe our discussion is part of the OP's original concerns, if anyone disagrees I'll shut up.
RV
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by RV GTO
You and I are in agreement, but I'll try to answer your question as best I can.
Step 2 talks about a power greater than ourselves - all sorts of posts of people talking what that power may be, anything from a door knob to god
Step 3 adds the preface "God as we understood Him" I think this gives folks some "wiggle room" with respect to religious beliefs (just my humble opinion)
Step 11 also adds "God as we understood Him" same opinion as above
These are just my opinions Nirvana, others may want to chime in with their own.
RV
Step 2 talks about a power greater than ourselves - all sorts of posts of people talking what that power may be, anything from a door knob to god
Step 3 adds the preface "God as we understood Him" I think this gives folks some "wiggle room" with respect to religious beliefs (just my humble opinion)
Step 11 also adds "God as we understood Him" same opinion as above
These are just my opinions Nirvana, others may want to chime in with their own.
RV
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
I almost didn't respond because I felt the thread had gone off-topic, but I see the OP is the one who brought the issue of group/not group into the thread.
Seems to me that an AA meeting for agnostics isn't all that different from any other AA meeting. Agnostics, by definition, are open minded; they neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of God. How often have you heard in a "regular" AA meeting, "God as I don't understand" him/her/it?
So long as the steps aren't altered and there's no other outside affiliation, I don't see the problem. It's up the the group conscience of the district or intergroup to decide if the times & dates of the meeting end up on the meeting list, but GSO registers the group, not the district.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
ag·nos·tic
noun /agˈnästik/
agnostics, plural
A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
noun /agˈnästik/
agnostics, plural
A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
So long as the steps aren't altered and there's no other outside affiliation, I don't see the problem. It's up the the group conscience of the district or intergroup to decide if the times & dates of the meeting end up on the meeting list, but GSO registers the group, not the district.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Originally Posted by Nirvana1
Yep exactly. To my understanding agnostic's who won't change their view would not agree with what the steps say or how you've explained the steps. Which is why I would want to know if they are changed completely or if they use them but have "wiggle" room in the agnostic group. There is a big difference!
Step 2: I freely acknowledge there are many powers greater than myself. I feel none of them I have looked at are supernatural deities, and some of them have helped to restore me to sanity.
Step 3: My current understanding of God is that it is fiction. Turning my will and my life over to something that does not exist is nonsensical. However, if there is a God, I am willing to turn it over. (per the 3rd step prayer)
Step 11: When I pray, I pray as prescribed in the step, and I meditate daily. That is all the step asks.
There is nothing in the steps about finding God, just a willingness to look. Any rigorously honest person should be able to do that.
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Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nirvana1
You can see why AA can't just endorse every recovery group in the world to be AA, right?
They do follow the AA 12 Steps but the wording has been revised. But it's definitely "wiggle room." Next meeting I will have to get a copy so that I can share.
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Originally Posted by flamingredhair
Absolutely.
They do follow the AA 12 Steps but the wording has been revised. But it's definitely "wiggle room." Next meeting I will have to get a copy so that I can share.
They do follow the AA 12 Steps but the wording has been revised. But it's definitely "wiggle room." Next meeting I will have to get a copy so that I can share.
Thoroughly we have seen a person fail who has rarely followed our path...
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Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sapling
You don't start off the meeting with this do you??
Thoroughly we have seen a person fail who has rarely followed our path...
Thoroughly we have seen a person fail who has rarely followed our path...
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by flamingredhair
Absolutely.
They do follow the AA 12 Steps but the wording has been revised. But it's definitely "wiggle room." Next meeting I will have to get a copy so that I can share.
They do follow the AA 12 Steps but the wording has been revised. But it's definitely "wiggle room." Next meeting I will have to get a copy so that I can share.
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Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
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Originally Posted by flamingredhair
They do follow the AA 12 Steps but the wording has been revised.
Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups
Toronto Ban on AA Atheists Sparks Global Flap
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique
If the wording of the twelve steps was changed, this is not entirely without precedent. It would not be the first time that an Intergroup has decided not to list a meeting in the official directory as a result.
Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups
Toronto Ban on AA Atheists Sparks Global Flap
Does religion belong at AA? Fight over 'God' splits Toronto AA groups
Toronto Ban on AA Atheists Sparks Global Flap
I have my opinion but I'll keep it to myself.
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Hi Flaming!
Hope you're not too dismayed (It is that Season is it not? "Let nothing you dismay...etc." and I say "God rest ye merry Gentlemen, and Gentlewomen"!) not dismayed at all the varying opinions about the Big Book. I had much the same reaction as you when I entered these "rooms" 23 years ago. LIke the Bible, the Big Book evolved at an earlier era and for those times it was an astonishing contribution. Like the Bible, it is not inappropriate to place it in context. Also, it is many things to many people. Again the parable of the blind men groping the elephant comes to mind. For some it is a banana leaf (those who grasp the ear), for others a tree (those grasping the leg), others a furry garden hose (those grasping the trunk). And is not that complex illness alcoholism much the same way (e.g. Do character defects cause alcoholism or is it the other way around or are both these things true? Is alcoholism a result of a mistaken immoral choice or is it a result of a genetic defect, parental abuse or some inborn personality defect or, again, are all these things (and more) possibly true?
Despite all these differences, uncertainties, complexities, I have come away with one thing of which I am fairly sure. That is that the AA program has benefitted over the years from the collective experience of generations of recovered and recovering alcoholics. In their journey to sobriety they have learned much and they have taught us wisdom. They may not all agree with one another but, like travelers returned from hidden lands, they have survived and they have tales to tell. They are well worth listening to. It has been my great privilege to have known them. When I was distraught and alone they helped me. They guided me back into the light.
W.
Hope you're not too dismayed (It is that Season is it not? "Let nothing you dismay...etc." and I say "God rest ye merry Gentlemen, and Gentlewomen"!) not dismayed at all the varying opinions about the Big Book. I had much the same reaction as you when I entered these "rooms" 23 years ago. LIke the Bible, the Big Book evolved at an earlier era and for those times it was an astonishing contribution. Like the Bible, it is not inappropriate to place it in context. Also, it is many things to many people. Again the parable of the blind men groping the elephant comes to mind. For some it is a banana leaf (those who grasp the ear), for others a tree (those grasping the leg), others a furry garden hose (those grasping the trunk). And is not that complex illness alcoholism much the same way (e.g. Do character defects cause alcoholism or is it the other way around or are both these things true? Is alcoholism a result of a mistaken immoral choice or is it a result of a genetic defect, parental abuse or some inborn personality defect or, again, are all these things (and more) possibly true?
Despite all these differences, uncertainties, complexities, I have come away with one thing of which I am fairly sure. That is that the AA program has benefitted over the years from the collective experience of generations of recovered and recovering alcoholics. In their journey to sobriety they have learned much and they have taught us wisdom. They may not all agree with one another but, like travelers returned from hidden lands, they have survived and they have tales to tell. They are well worth listening to. It has been my great privilege to have known them. When I was distraught and alone they helped me. They guided me back into the light.
W.
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