The Big Book
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,550
Flamingredhair:
Yes, disturbing. But your Agnostics-Atheists Group is a group. And as such no doubt contains a number of committed and like minded people, all sharing one thing, the only requirement for membership in AA, whatever any local "administrative" authority might say or conclude, namely, the "desire to stop drinking." Perhaps that is all that you require. If you achieve sobriety then, from your standpoint, the battle is won.As for the rest, perhaps these, as well as the contents of the "Big Book", are things which, as the Serenity Prayer says, "we cannot change" (and need not try, so long as we remain sober). Good luck.
W.
Yes, disturbing. But your Agnostics-Atheists Group is a group. And as such no doubt contains a number of committed and like minded people, all sharing one thing, the only requirement for membership in AA, whatever any local "administrative" authority might say or conclude, namely, the "desire to stop drinking." Perhaps that is all that you require. If you achieve sobriety then, from your standpoint, the battle is won.As for the rest, perhaps these, as well as the contents of the "Big Book", are things which, as the Serenity Prayer says, "we cannot change" (and need not try, so long as we remain sober). Good luck.
W.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 645
FlamingRedHair,
Have you considered the possibility that you already have a Higher Power? I know for myself, as an alcoholic, my Higher Power was alcohol itself. Alcohol was running my life, determining what I did, who I associated with (or didn't), how I thought, how I felt, how I spent my money, how I spent my time, etc. I was well acquainted with a Higher Power. The question for me was whether I wanted to stick with the one I had (that was slowly killing me) or whether I wanted to find a new one. I started my journey in AA with the AA group itself and the principles of the AA program as my Higher Power. Surely this group of people had a wealth of wisdom and experience that I as a single individual did not possess. Surely the principles/the steps were a design for living that I had yet to discover. I wasn't doing all that well living my life according to my thinking. And as others have suggested, there are other recovery programs available. If those work, great. If they don't, AA will still be there. My point to you is that the spirituality of AA and the concept of a Higher Power need not be a barrier to the AA program.
Susan Lauren
Have you considered the possibility that you already have a Higher Power? I know for myself, as an alcoholic, my Higher Power was alcohol itself. Alcohol was running my life, determining what I did, who I associated with (or didn't), how I thought, how I felt, how I spent my money, how I spent my time, etc. I was well acquainted with a Higher Power. The question for me was whether I wanted to stick with the one I had (that was slowly killing me) or whether I wanted to find a new one. I started my journey in AA with the AA group itself and the principles of the AA program as my Higher Power. Surely this group of people had a wealth of wisdom and experience that I as a single individual did not possess. Surely the principles/the steps were a design for living that I had yet to discover. I wasn't doing all that well living my life according to my thinking. And as others have suggested, there are other recovery programs available. If those work, great. If they don't, AA will still be there. My point to you is that the spirituality of AA and the concept of a Higher Power need not be a barrier to the AA program.
Susan Lauren
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,550
SusanLauren:
There is much wisdom in your reply. And there is also great wisdom in the AA program, despite its historical anomalies, wisdom that comes largely from the accumulated insight of generations of alcoholics. Permit me to suggest that a minimal concept of a "higher power" need only entail the recognition that "it is wise not to try to gain sobriety solely by oneself" that is solely through willpower. It took me 30 years to discover this for myself. Also I found that 1-1 psychiatry or counseling did not sufficefor me either. I can only speak for myself. I understand that there are those who seem to have recovered without the help of a group or have recovered only with counseling. I know that I could not do so. And, considering the enormous risk of failing to recover, it seems to me wise to advocate the use of a group, whether AA or some other program.
W.
There is much wisdom in your reply. And there is also great wisdom in the AA program, despite its historical anomalies, wisdom that comes largely from the accumulated insight of generations of alcoholics. Permit me to suggest that a minimal concept of a "higher power" need only entail the recognition that "it is wise not to try to gain sobriety solely by oneself" that is solely through willpower. It took me 30 years to discover this for myself. Also I found that 1-1 psychiatry or counseling did not sufficefor me either. I can only speak for myself. I understand that there are those who seem to have recovered without the help of a group or have recovered only with counseling. I know that I could not do so. And, considering the enormous risk of failing to recover, it seems to me wise to advocate the use of a group, whether AA or some other program.
W.
Ethanol Intolerant
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Cascadia
Posts: 665
FlamingRH, another resource to get your brain around the non-supernatural aspects of the 12-steps is Noah Levine's podcasts on Buddhism & the 12 Steps.
At the risk of participating in jacking this thread, painter is right (as usual) about how your group is being treated. It is contrary to the traditions.
Best of luck.
At the risk of participating in jacking this thread, painter is right (as usual) about how your group is being treated. It is contrary to the traditions.
Best of luck.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,954
Originally Posted by flamingredhair 
So far I am finding the AA agnostics group to my satisfaction.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
I can't help but be astounded at the hubris of suggesting that AA alter their book or steps to suit someone who is uncomfortable with them.
They are what they are and thousands have found recovery practicing them. If the book or the steps, or the very principle that AA is founded on is unappealing, there are ten thousand other ways to recover.
Arguing that something change to make me comfortable, is pure addict speak. The principles of AA are not something anyone is forced to work, though I recognize that some are court ordered to ATTEND for a specific period of time (a practice I do not support and I believe is counter to AA principles) Working the steps is an option. No one is forced to believe or have a spiritual experience.
They are what they are and thousands have found recovery practicing them. If the book or the steps, or the very principle that AA is founded on is unappealing, there are ten thousand other ways to recover.
Arguing that something change to make me comfortable, is pure addict speak. The principles of AA are not something anyone is forced to work, though I recognize that some are court ordered to ATTEND for a specific period of time (a practice I do not support and I believe is counter to AA principles) Working the steps is an option. No one is forced to believe or have a spiritual experience.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Roxboro, NC
Posts: 544
As a Christian, I go to church, read my Bible and try to follow Christ's example.
My higher power is the people in the rooms of AA. They are stronger than me. They have the power to do what I could not do for myself.
I do not bring my Bible or my religous beliefs into an AA meeting.
My higher power is the people in the rooms of AA. They are stronger than me. They have the power to do what I could not do for myself.
I do not bring my Bible or my religous beliefs into an AA meeting.
Awakening...
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the present
Posts: 1,125
Tradition three -long form
Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
So flamingredhair, your agnostic AA group is a group.
Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
So flamingredhair, your agnostic AA group is a group.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: ohio
Posts: 39
I sometimes wonder with questions like this. How easy it is for others to get discouraged or scared away from a program that has proven in my life to be a form of gods grace. Given to me freely all I had to do was accept it. I didnt know what to expect, I was vulnerable and scared.
This isnt for me though, I feel for those on the edge trying to find hope. Now fear they will get caught up between god and self and keep walking without giving a chance to work in their life. Stirring the pot of whether or not its PERFECT for you. Finding room or errors for debate can be damaging to others...kindly remember that everyone
This isnt for me though, I feel for those on the edge trying to find hope. Now fear they will get caught up between god and self and keep walking without giving a chance to work in their life. Stirring the pot of whether or not its PERFECT for you. Finding room or errors for debate can be damaging to others...kindly remember that everyone
Administrator
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,442
I think that people are capable of making up their own minds about things...and I think SR is great at presenting a wide range of views so that people can do just that 
To my mind healthy positive debate actually gets people involved, it doesn't discourage them or drive them away from anything.
D
To my mind healthy positive debate actually gets people involved, it doesn't discourage them or drive them away from anything.
D
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Newburgh
Posts: 868
I too was a staunch, militant atheist when I first walked into the doors of AA. When I first met my sponser and expressed my concerns over the Higher Power part, he simply told me to simply pray in the mornoing and at night before bed, whether I believed "someone" was listening or not. I asked for help to stay sober during the day and thanked that "someone" at night for staying sober that day. At first I thought it nonsense. But days went by, then weeks, then months, and then my first year. I stayed sober! I had not beend able to stay sober by any other means that I employed. But these simple prayers, along with the steps and a good sponser kept me happily sober. Over time my faith in a "Higher Power" grew and those things that I once fought tooth and nail against(The existence of God) became more real to me. Just as it says in the big book Who are we to say there is no God, He either is or He isin't.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: « USA » Recovered with AVRT (Rational Recovery) ___________
Posts: 3,680
It is rather naive to think that the "Big Book" of AA is going to change any time soon. Bill Wilson once remarked that if he were to change it, he would probably be ex-communicated, and he wrote it.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by flamingredhair
If you happen to be an athiest a higher power doesn't exist either. The whole idea that a higher power can be anything (even a door knob, I was told... WTH?) seems a bit like trickery.
I've been attending an agnostics meeting and a couple of weeks ago our local AA president (if that is the correct title) came to visit and told the facilitator that he shouldn't call it an AA meeting because God has been removed from the equation. That really bothered me. We have enough religious exclusion in the United States in our politics.
Again, AA should be about recovery, not our religious beliefs.
I've been attending an agnostics meeting and a couple of weeks ago our local AA president (if that is the correct title) came to visit and told the facilitator that he shouldn't call it an AA meeting because God has been removed from the equation. That really bothered me. We have enough religious exclusion in the United States in our politics.
Again, AA should be about recovery, not our religious beliefs.
12 Steps and 12 Traditions - Tradition 4
"Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole."
One section contained within the description:
"This meant of course, that we had been given the courage to declare each AA group an individual entity, strictly reliant on its own conscience as a guide to action."
As I recall, you just list your meeting, not aware of having to go through any process to have it listed.
I'm very curious who this person was and to a newcomer, I could see it being a complete turn-off.
Maybe KeithJ could chime in on this since he seems connected to higher levels of AA administration.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by RV GTO
FRH, I don't know who this individual was and I'm not familiar with anybody other than a person who heads up "district" meetings who may fit that bill. Even so, that individual was not in the position to tell the head of your group what he did and he violated the 4th tradition.
12 Steps and 12 Traditions - Tradition 4
"Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole."
One section contained within the description:
"This meant of course, that we had been given the courage to declare each AA group an individual entity, strictly reliant on its own conscience as a guide to action."
As I recall, you just list your meeting, not aware of having to go through any process to have it listed.
I'm very curious who this person was and to a newcomer, I could see it being a complete turn-off.
Maybe KeithJ could chime in on this since he seems connected to higher levels of AA administration.
12 Steps and 12 Traditions - Tradition 4
"Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole."
One section contained within the description:
"This meant of course, that we had been given the courage to declare each AA group an individual entity, strictly reliant on its own conscience as a guide to action."
As I recall, you just list your meeting, not aware of having to go through any process to have it listed.
I'm very curious who this person was and to a newcomer, I could see it being a complete turn-off.
Maybe KeithJ could chime in on this since he seems connected to higher levels of AA administration.
What your group might be is just one of the other many recovery programs who take certain aspects of AA but are not consider AA. You can see why AA can't just endorse every recovery group in the world to be AA, right?
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 252
Originally Posted by Nirvana1
My question to FRH about the group would be are the 12 steps and 12 traditions exactly like AA has them or have they been changed? Because if your agnostic group is following a totally different program and skipping pages in the book for study, then I can see why AA central would not consider it an AA meeting.
What your group might be is just one of the other many recovery programs who take certain aspects of AA but are not consider AA. You can see why AA can't just endorse every recovery group in the world to be AA, right?
What your group might be is just one of the other many recovery programs who take certain aspects of AA but are not consider AA. You can see why AA can't just endorse every recovery group in the world to be AA, right?
"What your group might be is just one of the other many recovery programs who take certain aspects of AA but are not consider AA."
Who makes that determination? Nobody I've heard of....
Tradition 4 - "Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that as a group, they have no other affiliations."
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by RV GTO
Nirvana, maybe I'm missing your point but a couple of things stand out - who is "AA Central" and when do they audit meetings to determine what is and what's not an AA meeting. I've been in meetings where where we "skip pages" and we don't necessarily "study" the big book.
Tradition 4 - "Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that as a group, they have no other affiliations."
Tradition 4 - "Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that as a group, they have no other affiliations."
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Between Meetings
Posts: 8,997
Originally Posted by miamifella
I am surprised that no has mentioned NA. I used to know a lot of alcoholics who preferred NA to AA, largely because they liked its literature better.
Awakening...
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: in the present
Posts: 1,125
Quoting my own post
Originally Posted by WakeUp
Tradition three -long form
Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
So flamingredhair, your agnostic AA group is a group.
Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend on money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.
So flamingredhair, your agnostic AA group is a group.
Tradition Four means that all groups are autonomous in how they want to run their affairs. AA "Central" doesn't send the AA cops over to kick the door down. In fact, the groups run the entire organization of Alcoholics Anonymous, via the group conscious. See Tradition Two.
Can anyone tell I've just finished an exhaustive course in AA history?
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